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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 02:39pm
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To hear so many of you talking about your state just now considering going to 3 man crews for varsity levels, weak 3rd link, and last (but not least) budget constraints simply amazes me.

Here, in Alabama, the 46th-50th ranked state in about every state ranking in our country, we've been at the mandatory 3 man crew for ALL varsity level games (both regular season and playoffs, area/region/sectional/non-area regular season, etc) for 5 or 6 years now. And, we're ALWAYS way behind everyone else.

Yes, we heard the same issues brought up by the schools/coaches when the state made the choice to make it mandatory for all varsity level games to be 3 man crews. And, at first, their complaints were legit. There are still some nights when a lot of our varsity level officials can't work and the game load is heavy when our assignors have to reach down to the sub-varsity level pool of officials to bring up to complete the crews.

I live in the largest metro-sized area with the highest unemployment rate in the state. Our local association has approximately 90 members. We have contracts with 24 schools to provide their officials. I included this to let you know our area schools are no where near having lots of surplus money to throw around.

A few years back our local association board felt since the state made it mandatory for all varsity level games to be worked by 3 man crews, we should train our younger/newer officials at the sub-varsity levels working 3 person crews too. Our local board met with the schools, convinced them to 'invest' the money at the sub-varsity level to pay for the extra official. In a few years time, they would be able to see their 'investment' pay off as 'their' officials moving up to the varsity level would be much better prepared to work at the varsity level upon arrival.

Part of the agreement we made with the schools was a concession on our part in the amount of pay we would receive (individually). Normal game fees for 7th-9th grade games were $25 per offical. $25 x 2 (officials) = $50 per game for officials. Our board offered for us to work the games for $20 per official = $20 x 3 (officials) = $60 per game for officials the schools agreed to pay. JV games were $30 per official, we agreed to do those for $25 which meant the schools agreed to pay $75 per game versus $60 per game in a 2 man crew. We agreed to these rates for either one or two years, then the schools would agree to pay each official the standard rate as set by the state.

To say this has worked positively would be an understatement. We now have 2nd and 3rd year officals getting to come up and call some varsity level games. And, the vast majority of the ones that get to come up are competent to do the job. As all of you veteran officials know, there is nothing that can educate an official as much as game experience, so, there is nothing that can replace game experience for getting these level officials prepared for the highest intensity games. But, for a 2nd or 3rd year official, getting the opportunity to move up and work any varsity level game is a big stage and a great experience.

I know this post is lengthy, but, I also hope it might benefit some of you that have some pull with your local associations. If any of you would like more information or ideas that I haven't covered here, feel free to e-mail me.

Thanks for your time,

Lee

btw, I'm interested in seeing what each state has as a guideline/mandatory number of officials - varsity and sub-varsity levels - to officiate basketball games.

Please list your state and the # of officials required
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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 04:01pm
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Wyoming 2 officials, next year they will allow schools to hire 3, the year after I am hearing that it might be mandated at least at the upper levels, but none of that is official yet..
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 04:19pm
Jerry Blum
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Indiana - 2-man crews for first 2 rounds of sectionals(first-round). 3-man crews from then on. Most larger schools use 3-man crews this year but there are still alot of schools using 2 officials for the regular season. Hearing rumors that 3-man is going to be required shortly.

I am new to Indiana and this surprised me because of the reputation Indiana basketball has. Coming from Missouri where last year had 3-man crews throughout the playoffs this was a huge surprise.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 04:26pm
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In Illinois we use 3 Person for all playoff games. Both boy's and girl's basketball use 3 person as well and all classes. We have two classes in our state. Class A is for the small schools and Class AA is for the larger schools.

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Old Tue Feb 08, 2005, 04:36pm
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Minnesota

Minnesota uses 3 person for all State Tournament games (4 classes: 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A) starting last year. Playoff games, called sub-sections and sections, are at the choice of the sections and the vast majority are 2 person. Regular season is the choice is the choice of the school or conference. Majority still 2 person. The problem this creates is for the true high scholl official to get 3 person court experience. Very little opportunity for many officials during regular season. Options are getting some JUCO or D3 college games and summer camps.
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Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 01:19am
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Southern Nevada: 3 man at Varsity boys and girls, 2 man for JV and below.

However, smaller schools can, by agreement, use 2 man. Some 1A schools (small private religious ones usually) dont have the budget and use 2 man. Which is how I got my first varisty assignment--2 man crew for a V girls game at a 1A school.

Clark
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Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 01:24am
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Oregon -- 2-whistle, 2-whistle, 2-whistle. And at the state tournament, 2-whistle. Boys', Girls', 2-whistle. All varsity, 2-whistle. All play-offs, 2-whistle. It's a very simple set-up.
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Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 01:37am
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By the way, I finally had the pleasure of working a 3 man game (actually I got to work on the Thomas & Mack main floor in Vegas, it was so cool! but that's another story).

It was my first real 3 man experience in a real game. I had done 2 scrimmages using 3 man, but no prior actual games.

First of all, I was blown away and how great 3 man is. I can see now why you want to use it at the higher levels. It is so much easier to watch my area. Sure, it is hard learning the switching C to T when the L moves and getting comfortable moving to strongside as the L more often than I would in 2 man and remembering to rotate, but all in all (particularly the C and T) it was so much easier to cover the floor.

I really hope my association sticks with 3 man (and I hope I get to get some 3 man Varsity games )

Our association is really trying to convince the schools to keep 3 man. All the issues raised above (cost, thinking they arent getting that much bang for the buck for 3 rather than 2, quality of all 3 officials, etc).

I'd love to see our association try to work the system you suggested--find a way to work the younger guys into 3 man at lower level games so that we could get the experience.

Clark
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Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 07:12am
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I am in VA. We use 3-whistle for all varsity games and 2-whistle for frosh/jv. We have 3 classifications for schools: A, AA, and AAA, with AAA being the largest.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 09:04am
Ref Ump Welsch
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Nebraska uses 2-whistle for the most part. We did use 3-whistle for the Metro Conference tournament last year, however, they threw that out this year because the tournament didn't make as much money using 3-whistle. The only time we used 3-whistle this year was for some big Shootout thing at the Qwest Center here in Omaha.

There's talk the Metro Conference might go to 3-whistle for varsity ball next year, and in that process might have someone from the state office (NSAA) at a lot of the games to see how it goes. Sounds like the NSAA is thinking 3-whistle in the next few years. But then again, that's all talk. I'll believe it all when there's ACTION!

As for subvarsity, we'll probably always be 2-whistle. I say that because in subvaristy football below the JV level, we're still 3-whistle and not 4. Some areas will still be in the dark ages.
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Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 09:06am
Ref Ump Welsch
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Oh, I should add. Western Iowa still is 2-whistle. I believe that's the standard for the entire state. As for their state tournament, still 2-whistle, although there was talk at one of the rules meetings last year (I only go every other year in Iowa) that they might be considering 3-whistle for state tournament within the next few years. Haven't had a chance to bump into a resident Iowan official to ask if that chatter was still going on this year.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 10:32am
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Montana - Most schools use 2 man but have the option to request 3. State tournaments this year are required to be a 3 person crew. This will filter down to earlier tourneys in future years. Fee schedule was also changed for three man crews versus 2 man. A 2 man cre each will get $50 for varsity or $30 for subvarsity. 3 man crews receive $42.50 varsity, and $25.50 for subvarsity.
Seems schools are mixed, but most are trying the 3man.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 10:47am
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Wow, we're not last in something at least

We in Mississippi have been doing three man for the last four/five years and all three man in playoffs the last two years.

At first they only did three man for the larger schools.

Our local association does solely three man for all varsity contests.

We found that was a great way to keep our veteran officials from giving it up. Lot easier on the legs.

And most of them only do three man in college etc.,

thanks
David
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 11:36am
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Thumbs up The Annual 2 Man / 3 Man Poll

In NC, the NCHSAA requires that all varsity games be officiated by 3 man crews. It's been mandatory for about 15 years.

rolltide, you'll find that the rest of the country is actually way behind the South with regard to 3 man officiating. VA, NC, SC, GA, AL, MS, TN, and FL all use primarily 3 man. Yet, our more "sophitiscated" neighbors to the north and west don't. And agree with you. Budgets are no tighter in the South than they are anywhere else in the country.

In our local association, we use 3 man for JV games and have for several years. Officials get $40 for 1 game and $60 for a doubleheader. We do not use 3 man for middle school, 7th-8th grade games.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 09, 2005, 11:44am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef


Yet, our more "sophitiscated" neighbors to the north and west don't.

Mr. Spelling's head just exploded.

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