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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 03, 2005, 11:48am
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BJV game. Table sounds horn and beckons me to the table. They tell me that 32 for the home team was not in the book. 32 was in the game and had already been replaced when they notified me of this. I told the table that since it was not caught until after he had become a player then he could not be penalized unless he came into the game again and we are notified at the time he enters the game. Correct me if I am wrong on that part.

The next part I drew a blank on the penalty. The home coach choose to go ahead and put him back in the game and get the T out of the way. Is this a team technical? Does it count toward bonus or indirectly to the coach. We did not charge it directly to the player or coach or towards the bonus. We shot 2 FT's and gave the visitors the ball. Was all of that correct. Should we have marked it somewhere in the book? Thanks in advance.
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Old Mon Jan 03, 2005, 12:05pm
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Ok, fist cup of coffee this AM and I am not referring to any book. My initial thought is this. Once the player was allowed to play (became a player) and a penalty was not assesed, you do can not give a "T" for that player re-entering the game because at that point he should be in the book.

If you caught the error at the first point in which he entered the game, then the "T". The "T" is simply a team "T" and is not charged against the coach (retains coaching box) or the player but does count toward team. It also eliminates a second "T" for a "book" technical since only one can be assesed.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 03, 2005, 12:05pm
Never Stop Learning
 
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This is an administrative tech and is penalized when it occurs. The only thing that I can see that was done wrong was that this is counted towards team-foul count. No direct or indirect to coach and no foul towards player. The table should have caught this the first time they were in the game and even though they didn't it still is punishable when they brought them back in. Any other administrative fouls are not penalized.



[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jan 3rd, 2005 at 12:16 PM]
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 06:51pm
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I have not looked this up but, I believe that once the player has entered the game, in the roster or not, the player becomes a legal player. The book "T" cannot be assesed unless it is caught at that time. If the player enters at a later time, the player would have already have been added to the book so there would be no penalty.

If the "T" was called at the proper time, then the "T" would go against the team only and count toward team fouls accordingly. The coach is not assesed an indirect for an administrative "T" and does not lose the coaching box.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 06:53pm
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sorry for the double post, my initial response didn't show up when I signed on today.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 07:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Redhouse
BJV game. Table sounds horn and beckons me to the table. They tell me that 32 for the home team was not in the book. 32 was in the game and had already been replaced when they notified me of this. I told the table that since it was not caught until after he had become a player then he could not be penalized unless he came into the game again and we are notified at the time he enters the game. Correct me if I am wrong on that part.
When it's discovered that the player is not listed, the technical foul is assessed when he is entered into the scorebook. It's makes no difference whether he has entered the game and then left. Many people say that it can't be assessed after he leaves the game but I have never seen any documentation from the NFHS on this. If someone has it, please post it and I'll gladly retract my disagreement.

The only time a T is not assessed is if the scorer makes the change but does not notify the officials until later. In that case, there is no penalty.

It's is a team technical and counts toward the bonus only. If another player is discovered to not be in the book, there is no penalty as only one such T can be called in a game against a team.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 10:25pm
M.A.S.H.
 
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I actually had two of these tonight. One for a number change and the other for not being in the book. This happened during the 7th grade game. Funny thing is that the 8th grade coach did the book for him. We all got a good laugh out of it.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:00pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
I actually had two of these tonight. One for a number change and the other for not being in the book. This happened during the 7th grade game. Funny thing is that the 8th grade coach did the book for him. We all got a good laugh out of it.
Against the same team or one against each team?

How many technicals did you call?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Redhouse BJV game. Table sounds horn and beckons me to the table. They tell me that 32 for the home team was not in the book. 32 was in the game and had already been replaced when they notified me of this. I told the table that since it was not caught until after he had become a player then he could not be penalized unless he came into the game again and we are notified at the time he enters the game. Correct me if I am wrong on that part.
Ok, consider yourself corrected. 2-11-1 tells us that one of the duties of the scorer is to keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter. Once the team member has participated, the scorebook must reflect this. Even if that means only checking the box for the quarter in which that person played. So if they aren't in the book, they must be added to it. The scorer should have caught this when the kid first subbed into the game. What this tells me is that the scorer is not doing his job properly. As the R you need to put this into your pregame chat with the scorer.

Besides the correct and good advice that Tony (BktBallRef) gave there is also something relevant to this on Page 14 of the Simplified and Illustrated book. It states that if a substitute reports to enter, but is wearing the wrong number, the coach may choose to have the team member not enter, thus avoiding a technical foul since no change is required to the scorebook.



Quote:
Originally posted by Redhouse
The next part I drew a blank on the penalty. The home coach choose to go ahead and put him back in the game and get the T out of the way. Is this a team technical? Does it count toward bonus or indirectly to the coach. We did not charge it directly to the player or coach or towards the bonus. We shot 2 FT's and gave the visitors the ball. Was all of that correct. Should we have marked it somewhere in the book? Thanks in advance.
Others have told you the correct penalty, but I'll repeat it and give you the rules references.
Your play is a violation of 3-2-2b. The scorer is required to add a name to the team member list after the 10-minute mark.
You will find the penalty under TEAM TECHNICAL in 10-1-2b. It is stated that this is penalized when it occurs. Meaning at the time the scorer is required to add the name, even if this should have been done earlier, as in your game, but was neglected. I also agree with Tony that if a change is made and the officials aren't told or don't penalize it right then, there can be no penalty assessed later.
Lastly, all technical fouls that have to do with changing the scorebook are known as ADMINISTRATIVE technical fouls. They are listed in the first box on Page 73 of the Rules Book. You will see there that it is charged to the team, counts toward the team-foul count for the bonus, but is NOT assessed indirectly to the HEAD coach.
Hopefully, this situation will serve as a good learning experience for you and the next time that it happens you will know the proper procedure. Best wishes.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:12pm
M.A.S.H.
 
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Same team, two Ts called. We were called over once and the number of a player who checked in was incorrect. 1st T. Called over again (different time) and player who checked in was not in the book. 2nd T.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:28pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
I actually had two of these tonight. One for a number change and the other for not being in the book. This happened during the 7th grade game. Funny thing is that the 8th grade coach did the book for him. We all got a good laugh out of it.
Against the same team or one against each team?

How many technicals did you call?
Here's what Tony is trying to tell you:
10-1-2 Penalty: (Art.2) One foul per team regardless of the number of infractions.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:30pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
Same team, two Ts called. We were called over once and the number of a player who checked in was incorrect. 1st T. Called over again (different time) and player who checked in was not in the book. 2nd T.
Whoops.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 5th, 2005 at 12:10 AM]
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:37pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
I actually had two of these tonight. One for a number change and the other for not being in the book. This happened during the 7th grade game. Funny thing is that the 8th grade coach did the book for him. We all got a good laugh out of it.
Against the same team or one against each team?

How many technicals did you call?
Here's what Tony is trying to tell you:
10-1-2 Penalty: (Art.2) One foul per team regardless of the number of infractions.
Even if they occur at different times? IE: At the 3:00 mark of the 1st Q, A1 is #44 in the book, however he is wearing 52. At the 6:00 mark of the 2nd Q, A7 reports in and is not in the book.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:46pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by tjones1
I actually had two of these tonight. One for a number change and the other for not being in the book. This happened during the 7th grade game. Funny thing is that the 8th grade coach did the book for him. We all got a good laugh out of it.
Against the same team or one against each team?

How many technicals did you call?
Here's what Tony is trying to tell you:
10-1-2 Penalty: (Art.2) One foul per team regardless of the number of infractions.
Even if they occur at different times? IE: At the 3:00 mark of the 1st Q, A1 is #44 in the book, however he is wearing 52. At the 6:00 mark of the 2nd Q, A7 reports in and is not in the book.
YES, even if they occur at different times.

Once a technical foul is assessed for...

10-1-2
After the time limit specified in Article 1:

a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.

...no more technical fouls can be assessed to that team for the remainder of the game.

PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 04, 2005, 11:49pm
M.A.S.H.
 
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Ok, got ya! Thanks BktBallRef!!
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