Definition of a shot from behind the backboard- High School

[Jack]

Gentlemen,

Another question from a coach.

A player grabs a wide offenside rebound just outside the key close to the baseline.

He turns and from that position shoots and makes a high arching shot.

The referee allowed the basket the other team inbounded the ball. Play continued and then at the next dead ball -perhaps ten seconds later. The opposing coach complained and the reeferee took the points off the board- citing the illegality of shooting from behind the backboard.

Question 1 - what is the criteria for such a call in High School.

Question 2 - once play has continued after the other team inbounded and advanced the ball can the refferee essentially change his mind like that.

regards,

Jack

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jack
Gentlemen,

Another question from a coach.

A player grabs a wide offenside rebound just outside the key close to the baseline.

He turns and from that position shoots and makes a high arching shot.

The referee allowed the basket the other team inbounded the ball. Play continued and then at the next dead ball -perhaps ten seconds later. The opposing coach complained and the reeferee took the points off the board- citing the illegality of shooting from behind the backboard.

Question 1 - what is the criteria for such a call in High School.

It's a violation for the ball to pass over the top of a rectangular backboard.

Question 2 - once play has continued after the other team inbounded and advanced the ball can the refferee essentially change his mind like that.

regards,

Jack

This falls under the "correctable error" provisions -- erroneously counting or cancelling a score. It must be corrected before the second live ball.

[Mark Dexter]

Assuming the ball passed over the backboard, I don't think this is a correctable error.

The violation here is for the ball to go over the top of a backboard (which it may or may have not done - a shot from deep in the corner can be legal). That violation, however, is totally different from the basket scoring, and must be called separately.

Let's say A1 had the ball OOB, and inbounded to A2 who was standing right next to the sideline. A2 shoots a 3-pt. shot, it's good, and B inbounds the ball. The Trail official, covering the play, then blows his whistle and says the back of A2's heel was touching OOB, but he missed it and forgot to call the violation. Would you say that the basket should be cancelled, and the ball given to B on the sideline?

[johnnyrao]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

It's a violation for the ball to pass over the top of a rectangular backboard.

This falls under the "correctable error" provisions -- erroneously counting or cancelling a score. It must be corrected before the second live ball.

I'm certainly no expert but I have to ask. If you correct this than, in my opinion, you are admiting a mistake by not calling the origianl violation which, I think, is a judgment call. Can the referees go back and review a judgment call and then decide that they bew it and correct the score? What if it wasn't a backboard violation? What if it was a missed traveling call? If U1 does not call an obvious travel and the player scores a basket does the coach have the right to question it at the next dead ball? If so, can the R overrule U1 if he knows for a fact his partner blew it and then use the correctable error rule as justification? I'm not picking on you Bob, but youre explanation above has me confused. My original thought was that there is nothing you can do in this case since you can't go back and call a violation after you missed it. Seems to me you did not erroneously cancel the score because you didn't call a violation. Perhaps the best you can do is admit you blew it and drive on, but can you really use correctable error?

[Jack]

Is there a list of or definition of correctible errors?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by johnnyrao

I'm certainly no expert but I have to ask. If you correct this than, in my opinion, you are admiting a mistake by not calling the origianl violation which, I think, is a judgment call. Can the referees go back and review a judgment call and then decide that they bew it and correct the score? What if it wasn't a backboard violation? What if it was a missed traveling call? If U1 does not call an obvious travel and the player scores a basket does the coach have the right to question it at the next dead ball? If so, can the R overrule U1 if he knows for a fact his partner blew it and then use the correctable error rule as justification? I'm not picking on you Bob, but youre explanation above has me confused. My original thought was that there is nothing you can do in this case since you can't go back and call a violation after you missed it. Seems to me you did not erroneously cancel the score because you didn't call a violation. Perhaps the best you can do is admit you blew it and drive on, but can you really use correctable error?

I think we've caught bob in one of his rare mistakes. I can't remember a time when he was wrong, so this is a day to take note of. This is a no-call, and can't be corrected. The ref just has to live with "the ignominy and disgrace" of making the mistake.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I think we've caught bob in one of his rare mistakes. I can't remember a time when he was wrong, so this is a day to take note of. This is a no-call, and can't be corrected. The ref just has to live with "the ignominy and disgrace" of making the mistake.

Philososophically, I agree that you should have to live and die with missing the call if that much time expired. And, certainly, if you change the play to a different violation--such as travelling, shooter stepping OOB, etc., would you correct all of those too? For that matter, R2-10-1 says "a rule is inadvertantly set aside", so you could theoretically include a PC foul in that "correction after the fact" category too. Sure opens up a can of worms.

But.......

In a strict reading of rule 2-10:
1) There is a rule that states that a ball shot over the backboard is OOB, and thus dead.
2) A rule was therefore inadvertantly set aside, and such fact was admitted to by the official.
3) The rule that was inadvertantly set aside did result in a score being erroneously counted.
4) The "error" of counting the score was recognized in a timely fashion.


Conclusion? Bwaaaaaaaaaaaa!!

I don't have a clue on how to really argue this one with Bob.

[Nevadaref]

I believe that this is not a correctable error.
I contend that by "Erroneously counting or canceling a score" the NFHS does not have this type of play in mind.
Rather the NFHS has this in the book for failure to award points due to BI or goaltending, getting the value (2 or 3) of a shot correct, and judging last second shots at the end of quarters/extra periods.

In my opinion the FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE A VIOLATION is all that happened here and that is not a correctable error.

The failure to call the violation for the ball passing over the rectangular backboard only resulted in not awarding possession OOB to the opponents. It did not directly result in the score. The fact that the ball actually went through the goal is responsible for that. By that I mean the ball could well have passed over the backboard and not gone into the basket. The two items are not necessarily connected.

The bottom line is that since the violation was not recognized, the ball remained live and subsequently passed through the basket. Although the ball does become dead when a violation occurs, not when the whistle blows, that assumes that the violation is actually recognized and called on the play.
So, according to 5-1-1 we have a successful goal that should count. Therefore, the score was correctly counted according to the rules.

For a test case let's replace that violation with a different one. A1 is driving to the basket and travels. The officials fail to recognize the violation. A1 shoots and scores. There is no one on this forum who would argue that the officials could stop the game at the next dead ball and cancel the basket. That is absurd.

[Nevadaref]

Just had a couple of more thoughts on this.

1. If A1 shoots the ball over the rectangular backboard, the officials do not recognize the violation, and the ball does not go into the goal, but comes down and grabbed by B1 who throws a long pass to B2 at the other end of the court who makes a lay-in, it would be silly to argue that this score was erroneous because of the unrecognized violation at the other end.

2. Setting aside a rule and failing to recognize/call a violation are not the same.
An example of setting aside a rule which results in erroneously counting a score is:
A1 shoots the ball is on the ring when B1 jumps and slaps the backboard. The slap cause the goal to shake and the ball to fall off the ring and not enter the goal. The official charges B1 with a technical foul and also calls BI and awards Team A two points.

That score was erroneously counted and could be corrected during the proper time frame.

[aussie_ref]

I dont know about the other rules but heres the fiba definition

Art. 58 Correctable errors
58.1 Definition
Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently disregarded
and results in the following situations only:
58.1.1 Awarding an unmerited free throw(s).
58.1.2 Permitting the wrong player to attempt a free throw(s).
58.1.3 Failure to award a merited free throw(s).
58.1.4 Officials erroneously awarding or cancelling point(s).
58.2 Procedure
58.2.1 To be correctable, the above-mentioned errors must be discovered
by an official or brought to the attention of an official before the ball
becomes live following the first dead ball after the game clock has
started following the error.
That is:
Error occurs - All errors occur during a dead ball.
Ball live - Error is correctable.
Game clock starts or continues
to run - Error is correctable.
Dead ball - Error is correctable.
Ball live - Error is no longer correctable.

OFFICIAL BASKETBALL RULES 2000
RULE EIGHT - GENERAL PROVISIONS
May 2000
Page 65 of 92
3a-00e
58.2.2 An official may stop the game immediately upon discovering a
correctable error, as long as it does not place either team at a
disadvantage. If the error is discovered during the game, the scorer
must wait for the first dead ball before sounding his signal to attract
the attention of the officials in order to stop the game.
58.2.3 Any points scored, time used and additional activity, which may have
occurred before recognition of the error, shall not be cancelled.
58.2.4 After an error has been discovered and it is still correctable:
• If the player involved in the correction of the error is on the
team bench after having been legally substituted (not for having
been disqualified or having committed his fifth foul), he must reenter
the playing court to participate in the correction of the
error (at this point he becomes a player).
Upon completion of the correction, he may remain in the game
unless a legal substitution has again been requested, in which
case the player may leave the playing court.
• If the player has been substituted because he has committed his
fifth foul or has been disqualified, his legal substitute must
participate in the correction of the error.
58.2.5 After the correction of the error, the game shall be restarted at the
point at which it was interrupted to correct the error. The ball shall
be awarded to the team entitled to the ball at the time the error was
discovered.
58.2.6 Correctable errors cannot be corrected after the referee has signed
the scoresheet.
58.2.7 Any errors or mistakes of record-keeping by the scorer which involve
the score, number of fouls or number of time-outs are not
correctable errors and may be corrected by the officials any time
before the referee signs the scoresheet.
58.3 Exception:
58.3.1 If the error constitutes an unmerited free throw(s) or the wrong
player attempting a free throw(s), the free throw(s) attempted as a
result of the error and all the activity involved therein shall be
cancelled unless there are technical, unsportsmanlike or disqualifying
fouls called during the activity after the error.
58.3.2 If the error constitutes the wrong player attempting a free throw(s)
or failure to award a merited free throw(s), and if there has been no
change in possession of the ball since the error was made, the game
shall be resumed after correction of the error as after any normal
free throw.
58.3.3 If the error constitutes failure to award a merited free throw(s) the
error shall be disregarded, should the same team score after having
been erroneously awarded possession of the ball.

Cheers
Matt (Are u impressed im a 13 year old boy )

[Nevadaref]

The US high school rules, NFHS, are the same for correctable error, aussie, except that we also have a fifth: shooting the FTs at the wrong basket.
Also you should know that not all correctable errors happen during a dead ball. Erroneously counting or canceling a score may happen during a live ball. Think of judging whether a shot is worth 2 or 3.
The NFHS case book specifically points this one out as a correctable error if it was observed by an official.

[bob jenkins]

I don't know who that bob jenkins clown is who said this was a correctable error, but he kicked this play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

In my opinion the FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE A VIOLATION is all that happened here and that is not a correctable error.

I agree with you here, Nevada.

I contend that by "Erroneously counting or canceling a score" the NFHS does not have this type of play in mind.
Rather the NFHS has this in the book for failure to award points due to BI or goaltending, getting the value (2 or 3) of a shot correct, and judging last second shots at the end of quarters/extra periods.

I would also add to this list awarding a basket combined with a PC foul or disallowing a basket following a non-PC offensive team foul.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
I don't know who that bob jenkins clown is who said this was a correctable error, but he kicked this play.

He had better not do it ever again.