Violation or not? - Page 3

mick · #31 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 10, 2004, 11:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Wise Weasel
Oh! and by the way guys, votre français n'est pas si mal!! (head to Google's translation tool if you don't understand! )

Wise Weasel,
Cool link.
~~Thanks~~ Merci.
mick

zebraman · #32 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 10, 2004, 11:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
I think you're overanalyzing this one Mick.

9-2-6

A player shall not touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.

He is most certainly touching it and it is most certainly "in the court."

Z

Z,
The player is not in, or on the court. 7-1-1; 4-35
And the ball is where the player is. 4-4-1,2,4
Every day and every rule except 7-2-b.

It's simple.
Where's the player and there's the ball.

And then there is Redhouse's post: "I thought there was a thread here not to long ago about this same situation that happened in a college game that the officials did not call. The discussion developed into college officials calling what they are told to call and not calling certain things."

To that I say "Yea, the college officials were told to use the rule book."

mick

To your list of rules I say, "it takes you four rules to explain it and it takes me one." This ain't a Columbo mystery, it's a basketball game.

To your comment about college officials using the rule book, I guess you haven't seen them call traveling on an inbounder or traveling on a player who slides on the floor lately. I sure have.

Z

Z,
Your rule applies to the throw-in player releasing the ball and then touching it first. When the ball is released and strikes the court and is touching no player out of bounds, it is then in the court.

mick

Fun ain't it?

Fun indeed. I see nothing in the book that defines "in the court." I see nothing about the ball being released in rule 9-2-6 either. We'll just have to agree to disagree until the NFHS comes up with a case play. Perhaps MTD is searching through the attic right now.?

Z

BktBallRef · #33 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 10, 2004, 11:48pm

This is a violation.

mick, the rule that you cited about touching the ball to the floor is only an issue in that it is not considered a dribble. That rule doesn't address location.

The basketball has the status of the court that it is touching, with one exception: if the player is in the BC, the ball he is holding is in the BC, no matter where the ball is touching. Otherwise, the ball gains the status of the floor that it is touching.

Player in FC, touches the ball to the floor in the BC or steps into the BC = Violation.

Player inbounds, touches the ball to the floor OOB or steps OOB = Violation.

Thrower, touches the ball to the floor in inbounds or steps inbounds = Violation.

IOW, whether touching the ball to the floor or if the player is touching the floor, it's the same occurrence. It isn't logical for it to be a violation if the player's hand touched the floor inbounds but not if the ball, held by the same hands touches inbounds.

It's no different than the FT situation. The rule says it's a violation if a player along the lane breaks the plane with his foot beofre the balls hits. Does that mean we don't have a violation if the same player falls head first, touches inside the lane with his hands and body but doesn't break the plane with his feet? I've got a violation.

mick · #34 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 10, 2004, 11:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
I think you're overanalyzing this one Mick.

9-2-6

A player shall not touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.

He is most certainly touching it and it is most certainly "in the court."

Z

Z,
The player is not in, or on the court. 7-1-1; 4-35
And the ball is where the player is. 4-4-1,2,4
Every day and every rule except 7-2-b.

It's simple.
Where's the player and there's the ball.

And then there is Redhouse's post: "I thought there was a thread here not to long ago about this same situation that happened in a college game that the officials did not call. The discussion developed into college officials calling what they are told to call and not calling certain things."

To that I say "Yea, the college officials were told to use the rule book."

mick

To your list of rules I say, "it takes you four rules to explain it and it takes me one." This ain't a Columbo mystery, it's a basketball game.

To your comment about college officials using the rule book, I guess you haven't seen them call traveling on an inbounder or traveling on a player who slides on the floor lately. I sure have.

Z

Z,
Your rule applies to the throw-in player releasing the ball and then touching it first. When the ball is released and strikes the court and is touching no player out of bounds, it is then in the court.

mick

Fun ain't it?

Fun indeed. I see nothing in the book that defines "in the court." I see nothing about the ball being released in rule 9-2-6 either. We'll just have to agree to disagree until the NFHS comes up with a case play. Perhaps MTD is searching through the attic right now.?

Z

What are the odds, eh, Z?

mick · #35 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 11, 2004, 11:00am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Thrower, touches the ball to the floor in inbounds or steps inbounds = Violation.

IOW, whether touching the ball to the floor or if the player is touching the floor, it's the same occurrence. It isn't logical for it to be a violation if the player's hand touched the floor inbounds but not if the ball, held by the same hands touches inbounds.

So, we disregard:

4-4-4 [ball location --> player location]

7-1-2 [player out of bounds --> ball out of bounds]

4-35 [Location of Player --> where touching the floor]

We rewrite 9.2.5 Situation [Thrower touching inbounds] and
we add a situation called 9.2.6, both to include out of bounds thrower touching the ball inbounds.

That may just work.

mick

Jurassic Referee · #36 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 11, 2004, 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Thrower, touches the ball to the floor in inbounds or steps inbounds = Violation.

IOW, whether touching the ball to the floor or if the player is touching the floor, it's the same occurrence. It isn't logical for it to be a violation if the player's hand touched the floor inbounds but not if the ball, held by the same hands touches inbounds.

So, we disregard:
4-4-4 [ball location --> player location]
7-1-2 [player out of bounds --> ball out of bounds]

4-35 [Location of Player --> where touching the floor]

We rewrite 9.2.5 Situation [Thrower touching inbounds] and
we add a situation called 9.2.6, both to include out of bounds thrower touching the ball inbounds.

1) Sooooooo......using 4-4-4, if a player in-bounds with the ball, reaches over and touches the ball to the floor OOB, y'all say "y.U.P., perfectly legal! Play on!"?
2) Of course we don't disregard R7-1-2(a). That's why the ball touching the court in-bounds becomes OOB.
3) Of course we also don't ignore 4-35. That's why we have a subsequent violation under R7-2-2.
4) 9-2-6 is explicit imo too. The thrower-in can't touch the ball in the court. Was the ball in the court when it touched the court in-bounds? Yup! Did the thrower-in touch it at the same time? Yup! Ergo.....

How come we're using the same rules to argue completely different conclusions?

mick · #37 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 11, 2004, 04:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
So, we disregard:
4-4-4 [ball location --> player location]
7-1-2 [player out of bounds --> ball out of bounds]
4-35 [Location of Player --> where touching the floor]

We rewrite 9.2.5 Situation [Thrower touching inbounds] and
we add a situation called 9.2.6, both to include out of bounds thrower touching the ball inbounds.

1) Sooooooo......using 4-4-4, if a player in-bounds with the ball, reaches over and touches the ball to the floor OOB, y'all say "y.U.P., perfectly legal! Play on!"?

No, JR. Asked and answered above.

"Redhouse,
Nope. Not saying that because of rule 7-2 (b).
We hafta use the rules."
mick

The thrower shall not: Touch the ball in the court....
Where's the ball? Inbounds?
Where' the thrower? Out of bounds.
Where's the rule?

Ball location, ball location, balls of fire!