contact after blocking the shot

ysong · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 18, 2004, 06:06pm

while trying to block the shot, B1 bat the ball away before A1 can release it. as a result, the ball does not have any chance to go in. but B1's hand incidentally pushes A1's wrist during B1's follow through before the ball clear off A1's hand.

Do you call it a foul in this scenario?

Thanks.

jlope1 · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 18, 2004, 06:15pm

Sounds like a good block to me.

mdray · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 18, 2004, 06:45pm

tough to call based on your description. I would really have to see this one to more properly judge!

How about this one -- this happened to me in a girl's 8th grade championship game for a tourney -- A is down by 3 with less than 10 seconds to go. A1 prepares to shoot a
3-pt shot. B1 attempts to block the shot and her hand contacts a part of the ball and A1's hand while it is in contact with the ball. Ball ends up hitting side of backboard and A2 knocks it out of bounds. B inbounds and game over. Coaches of A go absolutely crazy looking for a foul on the 3-pt attempt, telling me I "swallowed my whistle."

PLAYERCONTROL34 · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 18, 2004, 11:28pm

Generally as a rule with me if a defender contacts the ball i will let some contact go as it sounds in both of these cases. That's where you hear "they come to see them play and not us blow the whistle". It allows the players to play defense and not be scared to contest a shot...

Paul LeBoutillier · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 19, 2004, 12:39am

Agreed! That's a tough one. Contact was made by the defender, and even though there was no chance for the ball to go in, the other player WAS in the act of shooting.

I guess I wouldn't want to have to explain to the coach why I DIDN'T call the contact.

TimTaylor · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 19, 2004, 02:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier
Agreed! That's a tough one. Contact was made by the defender, and even though there was no chance for the ball to go in, the other player WAS in the act of shooting.

I guess I wouldn't want to have to explain to the coach why I DIDN'T call the contact.

In ysong's dedscription, defender made contact with shooters wrist before ball had completely left shooter's hand. IMOH as described it's clearly illegal use of hands - call the foul.

Mdray's situation is slightly different. 10-6-1 in addressing legal/illegal contact says in part "he/she shall not contact the opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponents hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball." In mdray's description B1's contact with shooter's hand on the ball appears to clearly be incidental to the block - no call, play on. If the coach asks: "Coach, the contact was with the part of the hand on the ball, in my judgement it was incidental to the block and therefore clearly legal under rule 10".

tomegun · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 19, 2004, 06:20am

[QUOTE in my judgement it was incidental to the block and therefore clearly legal under rule 10". [/B][/QUOTE]

Would you really say these exact words to a coach? (chuckle) Nothing really wrong with it but I can't picture saying this to a coach. I think you could tell a coach it was in rule 225 and he wouldn't know the difference. Don't get me wrong, it is correct, it is just too many big words for me in the middle of a game.

ysong · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 19, 2004, 09:02am

Quote:

Originally posted by TimTaylor

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul LeBoutillier
Agreed! That's a tough one. Contact was made by the defender, and even though there was no chance for the ball to go in, the other player WAS in the act of shooting.

I guess I wouldn't want to have to explain to the coach why I DIDN'T call the contact.

In ysong's dedscription, defender made contact with shooters wrist before ball had completely left shooter's hand. IMOH as described it's clearly illegal use of hands - call the foul.

My hesitation to call this a foul is because B1 does not gain any advantage resulting from this contact. The ball is blocked before the contact anyway. Do you guys ususlly apply advantage/disadvantage principle here?

In the second scenario, based on "hand is part of the ball" principle, a foul should "never" be called if

a. the ballhandler's hand is in contact with ball when a opponent contacts the ballhandler.
b. the contact is on the ballhandler's hand only. (not on wrist, on arm, etc.)

also when contact occurs, the ballhandler may be holding the ball, dribbling, or in the act of passing/shooting/rebounding/inbounding/"jumping the ball", (do I miss any here?

), the principle always applies.

Do you guys agree?

thanks.

LarryS · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 19, 2004, 09:16am

I think I pass on a call in the first scenario...primarily because he said the contact was incidental. To me, that means it had no impact on the attempt.

I had a similar situation last night. JV Girls tourny. Visitor is obviously more skilled, faster and exhibits more discipline in their play. I'm trail at the end of the half, horn sounds then A1 starts her attempt. B1 manages to block the shot but makes very slight contact on the hand and bumps the shooter with her body. A1 should have been given an Oscar for the flop. Me, I'm waving off the shot the entire time.

Team A coach says "You gotta call that". I calmly say "Coach, she started her attempt after the horn, the defender had a clean block and your player flopped. You are up 44-2 and that was the first time all game they have come within 3 feet of contesting a shot. Do you really want that call?" Coach takes a second and says "Good point" and walks away.

TimTaylor · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 19, 2004, 02:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
[QUOTE in my judgement it was incidental to the block and therefore clearly legal under rule 10".

Would you really say these exact words to a coach? (chuckle) Nothing really wrong with it but I can't picture saying this to a coach. I think you could tell a coach it was in rule 225 and he wouldn't know the difference. Don't get me wrong, it is correct, it is just too many big words for me in the middle of a game. [/B][/QUOTE]

In reality, I'd probably say "Coach, the contact was with the part of the hand on the ball, it was incidental to the play and that is allowed by rule." And yes, in exactly those same words - only takes a couple seconds during a dead ball.

whistleone · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 19, 2004, 05:38pm

I've heard of using the 80/20 rule in these situations. If 80% (or more) of the contact is on the ball while 20% (or less) is on the wrist/arm, then pass on the call.

dhodges007 · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 05:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by ysong
while trying to block the shot, B1 bat the ball away before A1 can release it. as a result, the ball does not have any chance to go in. but B1's hand incidentally pushes A1's wrist during B1's follow through before the ball clear off A1's hand.

Do you call it a foul in this scenario?

Thanks.

Look at it this way... the contact on the shooter didn't affect the shot, it was the contact on the ball, anything after that is incidental. (Unless you have a big crash or intentional or flagrant) Good no call!