Available for your Disposal

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

I am sorry, I was referring to the disagreement that BZ is having with Cameron Rust, Bob Jenkins, and I.

Mark, isn't that basically what the disagreement has been about so far? What am I missing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


If, as you say, it is available and at their disposal when the team picks up the ball, I suggest you consider the following variations:

Ball drops through the net B1 picks it up right there, available you say? You start the count and disallow a TO by A?

Camron, isn't the above basically the original question? Didn't the poster say that "A has made the basket and as soon as B has grabbed the ball, it is too late for A to call a time-out, even before B has stepped out of bounds"? The question wasn't whether you would start a count or not; it was whether you would grant a time-out request by B after A had grabbed the ball. I quoted a buncha rules that say(imo) that you can't grant the TO request. I still haven't seen any rule quoted that would say that you can grant a TO request in this particular instance-- not when the ball rolls away-- but in this particular instance.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

BZ:

You keep missing the point that Cameron, Bob, and I are making. The location of B1, when he has possession of the ball, is important when deteriming when the ball the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in. You are confusing two types of plays: #1) The ball is available for B1 to pick up and take it out-of-bounds, so as to start a throw-in, or B1 does pick up the ball but makes no effort to take the ball out-of-bounds immediately so as to start a throw-in; and #2) B1 does pick up the ball immediately and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds so as to start a throw-in.

In Play #2, it does not matter where the location of the ball is, as long as a player from B makes every effort to secure the ball as soon as possible after Team A scores, and once a player secures the ball, makes every effort to take the ball out-of-bounds as soon as possible so as to start its throw-in, then the ball is not at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in until B1 is out-of-bounds and no part is his body is touching inbounds. And that is when the official shall start his five seconds count for the throw-in.

You must also remember that the definition of a throw-in is: A method of putting the ball in play from OUT-OF-BOUNDS.

The reason there are casebook plays involving situations like Play #1 above are to show how situations where Team B's actions are to be construed as delaying in making a dead ball become a live ball. In Play #2, Team B is not guilty of delaying in making a dead ball become a live ball.

Right now I do not feel like climbing up Mt. Attic to go through 34 years of casebooks, but I can assure you that what Bob Jenkins and Cameron Rust have been telling you is the correct way to start a five second throw-in count. Why? Because Team B cannot start a throw-in until B1 is out-of-bounds and in possession of the ball, then and only then, with the exceptions of Play #1, does the status of the ball go from dead to live and the ball is now at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in. In 34 years of officiating high school and college basketball I have never (forgive me J. Dallas Shirley for using the word never) seen an official start his five second count in Play #2 until B1 is out-of-bounds with the ball, nor have I ever heard an official advocate such a position as yours because to do so would mean that the official did not have a thorough knowledge of the applicable rules and an understanding of the how and why of the rules concerned.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Camron, isn't the above basically the original question? Didn't the poster say that "A has made the basket and as soon as B has grabbed the ball, it is too late for A to call a time-out, even before B has stepped out of bounds"? The question wasn't whether you would start a count or not; it was whether you would grant a time-out request by B after A had grabbed the ball. I quoted a buncha rules that say(imo) that you can't grant the TO request. I still haven't seen any rule quoted that would say that you can grant a TO request in this particular instance-- not when the ball rolls away-- but in this particular instance.

No its not too late for Team A to request and be granted a timeout, because even though B1 immediately grabs the ball and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball is dead until B1 is completely out-of-bounds and is not touching inbounds. Then and only then does the dead ball become live and now if Team A requests a timeout, its request shall not be granted.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

No its not too late for Team A to request and be granted a timeout, because even though B1 immediately grabs the ball and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball is dead until B1 is completely out-of-bounds and is not touching inbounds. Then and only then does the dead ball become live and now if Team A requests a timeout, its request shall not be granted.

Sigh. Again, Mark, I quoted you a whole buncha RULES that say that you're completely wrong. What I'm getting in return from you is your OPINION, and nothing else. If you can find a rule- any rule- that will support your opinion, feel free to post it. I've got an open mind. Until then, I'm just wasting time quoting the same rules back to you, only to have you say "oh no no, those rules are wrong".

Btw, re-read Bob's answer above. He seems to think that it's too late to grant the TO request by A in this situation after B has the ball at it's disposal IN-BOUNDS.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2004 at 04:11 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
This hinges on "available". If the player is or could be in a a position to to actually make a throw-in, then it is available.

If, as you say, it is available and at their disposal when the team picks up the ball, I suggest you consider the following variations:

Ball drops through the net B1 picks it up right there, available you say? You start the count and disallow a TO by A?

Now ball drops throuh the net and it rolls to the FT line where B picks it up. At disposal, available? You start the count and disallow a TO by A? I'd hope not.

Now ball drops throuh the net and it rolls to the division line where B picks it up. At disposal, available? You start the count and disallow a TO by A? I'd REALLY hope not.

The rules do say that the count begins when the throw-in begins. The rules do say the throw-in begins when it is at the teams disposal. If you consider it at their disposal when they pick up the ball, you should be counting when the player that retreived the ball from the division line is jogging towards the endline to execute the throw-in.

B1 must be in a location (or had enough time to get there) where he can make a legal throw-in before the throw-in actually begins.

The point at which A can no longer call timeout is simultaneous to the point at which the throwin count begins. If you're counting the 5 count when B is 20 feet from a legal throwin spot, you're really disadvantaging the thrower.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 11th, 2004 at 03:23 PM]

4-41-3 The throw in and throw in count begins when ball is at the disposal of the team entitled to it.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

No its not too late for Team A to request and be granted a timeout, because even though B1 immediately grabs the ball and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball is dead until B1 is completely out-of-bounds and is not touching inbounds. Then and only then does the dead ball become live and now if Team A requests a timeout, its request shall not be granted.

MTD, Sr.

By what rule?

That is 100% wrong.

5.8.3 situation D:

A1 or A2 requests a time out: a) while airborne A1 is holding the ball. b) A1's throw in is in flight toward A2. c) when the ball IS ON THE FLOOR at A1's disposal for a throw in. The time out is granted in a and c, but not in b.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 11th, 2004 at 04:56 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
BZ:

You keep missing the point that Cameron, Bob, and I are making. The location of B1, when he has possession of the ball, is important when deteriming when the ball the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in. You are confusing two types of plays: #1) The ball is available for B1 to pick up and take it out-of-bounds, so as to start a throw-in, or B1 does pick up the ball but makes no effort to take the ball out-of-bounds immediately so as to start a throw-in; and #2) B1 does pick up the ball immediately and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds so as to start a throw-in.

In Play #2, it does not matter where the location of the ball is, as long as a player from B makes every effort to secure the ball as soon as possible after Team A scores, and once a player secures the ball, makes every effort to take the ball out-of-bounds as soon as possible so as to start its throw-in, then the ball is not at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in until B1 is out-of-bounds and no part is his body is touching inbounds. And that is when the official shall start his five seconds count for the throw-in.

You must also remember that the definition of a throw-in is: A method of putting the ball in play from OUT-OF-BOUNDS.

The reason there are casebook plays involving situations like Play #1 above are to show how situations where Team B's actions are to be construed as delaying in making a dead ball become a live ball. In Play #2, Team B is not guilty of delaying in making a dead ball become a live ball.

Right now I do not feel like climbing up Mt. Attic to go through 34 years of casebooks, but I can assure you that what Bob Jenkins and Cameron Rust have been telling you is the correct way to start a five second throw-in count. Why? Because Team B cannot start a throw-in until B1 is out-of-bounds and in possession of the ball, then and only then, with the exceptions of Play #1, does the status of the ball go from dead to live and the ball is now at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in. In 34 years of officiating high school and college basketball I have never (forgive me J. Dallas Shirley for using the word never) seen an official start his five second count in Play #2 until B1 is out-of-bounds with the ball, nor have I ever heard an official advocate such a position as yours because to do so would mean that the official did not have a thorough knowledge of the applicable rules and an understanding of the how and why of the rules concerned.

MTD, Sr.

I'm not missing anything other then the time I'm wasting trying to get you to stop throwing OPINION at me and give a rule to support your 100% incorrect interpretation.

[RookieDude]

Hey...What's all the discussion about?

It's a judgement call!

One official's judgement of "disposal" may be different than another official's.

I think Bob said you would know it when you see it.

Maybe this rule has some room for us to use our judgment as to when we can grant a time-out or not in relationship to "disposal".

[Camron Rust]

Everyone agrees that once the ball is at the disposal of team A, team B can not be granted a time out. I don' think their is any disagreement there.

Everyone agrees that the ball may be considered to be at teams A's disposal when it is still inbounds or whether A has picked up the ball or not.

The difference is that I, and others, assert that it is not absolute that it be at their disposal just bacause they pick it up. NONE of the posted cases or rules support that.

Again, if you consider it at their disposal, you have a count in progress. If you're not counting, you have indirectly decided it is not at their disposal and team B can have the time out.

I restate my earlier point....

If team A picks up the ball 2' from the endline, you consider it at their disposal? OK. Are you counting? If not, it's not at their disposal.

Team A picks up the ball 20' from the endline...you going to start you count at that moment...even though it takes 2-3 seconds for A to get to the endline leaving them only 2 seconds to complete the throwin???

Disposal = ball available to team A such that they could make a legal throwin at that point or had enough time to get into a position to make a legal throwin.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Everyone agrees that once the ball is at the disposal of team A, team B can not be granted a time out. I don' think their is any disagreement there.

Everyone agrees that the ball may be considered to be at teams A's disposal when it is still inbounds or whether A has picked up the ball or not.

The difference is that I, and others, assert that it is not absolute that it be at their disposal just bacause they pick it up. NONE of the posted cases or rules support that.

Again, if you consider it at their disposal, you have a count in progress. If you're not counting, you have indirectly decided it is not at their disposal and team B can have the time out.

I restate my earlier point....

If team A picks up the ball 2' from the endline, you consider it at their disposal? OK. Are you counting? If not, it's not at their disposal.

Team A picks up the ball 20' from the endline...you going to start you count at that moment...even though it takes 2-3 seconds for A to get to the endline leaving them only 2 seconds to complete the throwin???

Disposal = ball available to team A such that they could make a legal throwin at that point or had enough time to get into a position to make a legal throwin.

It's all about judgement. Nobody is contesting that point.

MTD is using your posts to reinforce his stance that the ball MUST be OOB for it to be at their disposal, and unless I'm reading your posts wrong, you are not saying that at all.

[blindzebra]

The situation where the ball rolls to mid court keeps coming up.

If the shooting team contacts that ball and causes it to go into a corner or above the FT line, you hit your whistle and warn for delay.

If the ball gets there on it's own or deflects off the team throwing in, you can either wait until they get the ball into position to throw it in or hit the whistle to get the ball back into play.

In both cases you are then handing the ball on the throw in, so disposal is the same as a spot throw in, with the ability to run the end line.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Everyone agrees that once the ball is at the disposal of team A, team B can not be granted a time out. I don' think their is any disagreement there.

Everyone agrees that the ball may be considered to be at teams A's disposal when it is still inbounds or whether A has picked up the ball or not.

The difference is that I, and others, assert that it is not absolute that it be at their disposal just bacause they pick it up. NONE of the posted cases or rules support that.

Again, if you consider it at their disposal, you have a count in progress. If you're not counting, you have indirectly decided it is not at their disposal and team B can have the time out.

I restate my earlier point....

If team A picks up the ball 2' from the endline, you consider it at their disposal? OK. Are you counting? If not, it's not at their disposal.

Team A picks up the ball 20' from the endline...you going to start you count at that moment...even though it takes 2-3 seconds for A to get to the endline leaving them only 2 seconds to complete the throwin???

Disposal = ball available to team A such that they could make a legal throwin at that point or had enough time to get into a position to make a legal throwin.

Camron:

For BZ's sake you had better clarify your first point above, I think that you and I would both agree that when A1 picks up the ball two feet from the endline, the official should wait to see if A1 is just going to stand there and waste time or does he immediately move to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in. If it is the former, then the ball can be considered at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball is now live, and a five second count can be started, meaning that if Team B now makes a request for a timeout it will not be granted. But if it is the latter, then the ball does not become at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball does not become live, and the five second count should not start until A1 is out-of-bounds and no part of him is touching inbounds; until this happens if Team B makes a request for a timeout, it should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

Camron:

For BZ's sake you had better clarify your first point above, I think that you and I would both agree that when A1 picks up the ball two feet from the endline, the official should wait to see if A1 is just going to stand there and waste time or does he immediately move to take the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in. If it is the former, then the ball can be considered at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball is now live, and a five second count can be started, meaning that if Team B now makes a request for a timeout it will not be granted. But if it is the latter, then the ball does not become at the disposal of Team A for a throw-in, the ball does not become live, and the five second count should not start until A1 is out-of-bounds and no part of him is touching inbounds; until this happens if Team B makes a request for a timeout, it should be granted.

[/B][/QUOTE]Lah me.

Still no rules citations to back up any of your suppositions, Mark. Any specific reason for that? Maybe because there aren't any?

[blindzebra]

JR, they are in the rules covering the cone of disposalbility.