Available for your Disposal

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
To go back to the original dispute, would you grant the other team's request for a TO if the ball was available and at the disposal in-bounds of the team that was making the throw-in, Bob? If so, under what rule(s)? And what about 6.1.2SitB(a) where it says the TO can't be granted even though the ball is bouncing in-bounds if it's at the thrower's disposal?

No, I wouldn't grant the TO if the ball was at the disposal of the inbouding team. The question is and has always been how "disposal" is defined / practiced.

IMHO, If B has the ball OOB, or could have had the ball OOB, then it's at their disposal. If it's "too soon" for them to have the ball OOB, then it's not at their disposal.

The definition of "too soon" is the same as the definition of pornography -- I know it when I see it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
[/B]

IMHO, If B has the ball OOB, or could have had the ball OOB, then it's at their disposal. If it's "too soon" for them to have the ball OOB, then it's not at their disposal.

The definition of "too soon" is the same as the definition of pornography -- I know it when I see it. [/B][/QUOTE]Agree. Experience usually lets you know the difference between when a team is trying to avoid having the ball at their disposal and the occasion when there is a just a little confusion as to deciding who's gonna actually make the throw-in.

[ChuckElias]

IMO, this is one of the few times when the NBA's rule is better than ours. In the NBA, a team may not be granted a TO during the dead ball period immediately after that team scores.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

IMHO, If B has the ball OOB, or could have had the ball OOB, then it's at their disposal. If it's "too soon" for them to have the ball OOB, then it's not at their disposal.

The definition of "too soon" is the same as the definition of pornography -- I know it when I see it. [/B]

Agree. Experience usually lets you know the difference between when a team is trying to avoid having the ball at their disposal and the occasion when there is a just a little confusion as to deciding who's gonna actually make the throw-in. [/B][/QUOTE]

At times I have started my count shortly after the score when B5 tips the scored ball toward the endline (to nobody), and turns to go up court with no teammates on the endline to throw-in.
I have figgered "at disposal".

If team A had tipped that ball, I would have warned. So, I figger if Team B tips it, I may as well start counting.
mick

[coachz_216]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The throw-in period starts in-bounds when the official determines that the ball is available-i.e. at the disposal of the thrower-in. To make a legal throw-in, they then just have to take it out-of -bounds and throw it in within their alloted 5 seconds from when the throw-in began(in-bounds). I think that I might be missing your point on this one.

To go back to the original dispute, would you grant the other team's request for a TO if the ball was available and at the disposal in-bounds of the team that was making the throw-in, Bob? If so, under what rule(s)? And what about 6.1.2SitB(a) where it says the TO can't be granted even though the ball is bouncing in-bounds if it's at the thrower's disposal?

So are you saying that that a request for TO can be granted up to the point where you start you count? After you start your count (I'm assuming) you have determined that the ball is "at their disposal" and you will no longer recognize an opponent's request for TO?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by coachz_216

So are you saying that that a request for TO can be granted up to the point where you start you count? After you start your count (I'm assuming) you have determined that the ball is "at their disposal".

Yes.

I usually find that individuals have one of two questions on this:

Q1) For how long can I grant the TO?
Q2) When is the ball at the disposal / do I start my count?

A1) Until you start your count
A2) AS soon as you would no longer grant a TO to A.

Yes, it's circular reasoning. But as long as an individual is only confused about one of those issues, it works. And, for some reasaon, people who are confused by Q1 aren't confused by Q2, and vice-versa.

[coachz_216]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Yes.

I usually find that individuals have one of two questions on this:

Q1) For how long can I grant the TO?
Q2) When is the ball at the disposal / do I start my count?

A1) Until you start your count
A2) AS soon as you would no longer grant a TO to A.

Yes, it's circular reasoning. But as long as an individual is only confused about one of those issues, it works. And, for some reasaon, people who are confused by Q1 aren't confused by Q2, and vice-versa.

Believe it or not--it makes perfect sense!!!

Actually, I would feel more comfortable if there was a more black/white way of deciding exactly when the ball is supposedly "at the disposal" of the inbounding team. I've read the previous posts--not sure I've heard a definitive answer.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by blindzebra

It is the official's judgement, by rule, as to when the ball is at the disposal.

Obviously in that extreme situation the ball is not at team B's disposal 70 feet from a throw in.

However, if B1 takes the ball right out of the net and starts toward the end line, yes I'm starting my count at that point, which is what the case play says.

BZ:

I hope that you have been reading Bob Jenkins and Camron Rust's posts because what they say is correct.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by coachz_216

Believe it or not--it makes perfect sense!!!

Actually, I would feel more comfortable if there was a more black/white way of deciding exactly when the ball is supposedly "at the disposal" of the inbounding team. I've read the previous posts--not sure I've heard a definitive answer.

The rules are pretty clear.

If the ball is in the vicinity of the throw in area, i.e. end line, when team B secures the ball, or if in the official's judgement COULD secure the ball, it is at their disposal, the ball is live, and the count starts.

[blindzebra]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra
[B]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

Your statement is partially correct and partially incorrect.

There have been other threads concerning when the ball becomes at the disposal of the thrower after a goal is scored. NFHS R5-S8-A3b and NCAA R5-S9-A4 and A5 are the governing references with regard to requesting a timeout.

I agree with you that after Team A scored and Team B does not make an effort to pick-up the ball to take it out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in the covering official can declare the ball at the disposal of Team B by starting a five second count; once the official starts his five second count if Team A requests a timeout, its request cannot be granted. Why? The ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of the team allowed to make the throw-in. If a player from Team B picks up the ball immediately after Team A scores and then immediately takes the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball does not become live until the Team B player is completely out-of-bounds; at that point the ball becomes live and the ball is at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in. That means the ball is dead until the ball is at the disposal of Team B and while the ball is dead any team can request a timeout and the timeout request should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

6.1.2 situation B disagrees with that interpretation. That case play clearly states that the ball may be deemed at the disposal whether the throwing team is inbounds or out. '

The comment after the case play even talks about a ball near the end line being availiable to a player, that the count can begin.

Further the case play for 5-8-3 disagrees with you too.
5.8.3 situation D.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 11th, 2004 at 01:59 PM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

[/B][/QUOTE]

JR agrees with me and so does the rule book, so who's correct?

Or does this fall under the cone of disposalability? [/B][/QUOTE]


BZ:

I am sorry to inform you that the rules support Bob Jenkins, Cameron Rust, and I. Read their posts and learn.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

No, I wouldn't grant the TO if the ball was at the disposal of the inbounding team.

Uh, MTD Sr., could you tell me how you got from this response to saying that Bob agrees with you that you COULD grant a TO?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR agrees with me and so does the rule book, so who's correct?

Or does this fall under the cone of disposalability? [/B][/QUOTE]


BZ:

I am sorry to inform you that the rules support Bob Jenkins, Cameron Rust, and I. Read their posts and learn.

MTD, Sr. [/B][/QUOTE]

Cite a rule, not some play from your head to support it.

There is not one rule that states ball in hands, player OOB equalls disposal. In fact EVERY rule covering a throw in after a basket says the EXACT opposite.

MTD, read the RULES and learn.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 11th, 2004 at 02:00 PM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Uh, MTD Sr., could you tell me how you got from this response to saying that Bob agrees with you that you COULD grant a TO?

JR:

I am sorry, I was referring to the disagreement that BZ is having with Cameron Rust, Bob Jenkins, and I.

MTD, Sr.

[Camron Rust]

This hinges on "available". If the player is or could be in a a position to to actually make a throw-in, then it is available.

If, as you say, it is available and at their disposal when the team picks up the ball, I suggest you consider the following variations:

Ball drops through the net B1 picks it up right there, available you say? You start the count and disallow a TO by A?

Now ball drops throuh the net and it rolls to the FT line where B picks it up. At disposal, available? You start the count and disallow a TO by A? I'd hope not.

Now ball drops throuh the net and it rolls to the division line where B picks it up. At disposal, available? You start the count and disallow a TO by A? I'd REALLY hope not.

The rules do say that the count begins when the throw-in begins. The rules do say the throw-in begins when it is at the teams disposal. If you consider it at their disposal when they pick up the ball, you should be counting when the player that retreived the ball from the division line is jogging towards the endline to execute the throw-in.

B1 must be in a location (or had enough time to get there) where he can make a legal throw-in before the throw-in actually begins.

The point at which A can no longer call timeout is simultaneous to the point at which the throwin count begins. If you're counting the 5 count when B is 20 feet from a legal throwin spot, you're really disadvantaging the thrower.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Nov 11th, 2004 at 03:23 PM]