The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 04:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 22
Had this happen in 8th grade girls game. Team A substitutes A6 for A1. A1 walks off the court. We have 5 in the game. As my partner is administrating the throw-in, A2 thinks that she was the one substituted for and she walks off the court right in front of her bench. The ball is now in play and coach of A sees only 4 players and yells for A2 to get back in the game. She runs right back onto the court. I called a T on her. As I'm reading 4.34.3 it says that an illegal sub becomes a player when the ball becomes live. So, was A2 an illegal sub that when the ball was live became legal? I'm more thinking that since she actually walked off the court when the ball was inbounded, the T was for unauthorized leaving of the court. I told the coach the T was for illegal substituting, but when he said she was already in the game I said then the T was for walking off the floor. Did I get this remotely correct?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 04:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,847
8th grade girls...let it go. Who was at a disadvantage?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 04:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
See Case Book Play 10.2.2. You got it right by rule.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 05:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 24
Little to tight

I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 05:25pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally posted by flsh224
I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.
Actually team A will gain an advantage if they get away with it. Team B loses 2 FT opportunities and a possession, don't they, if you ignore it? Certainly seems like an advantage to me.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 05:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by flsh224
I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.
Actually team A will gain an advantage if they get away with it. Team B loses 2 FT opportunities and a possession, don't they, if you ignore it? Certainly seems like an advantage to me.
Point taken. I just think it is a little much for 8th grade girls.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 05:47pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally posted by flsh224
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by flsh224
I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.
Actually team A will gain an advantage if they get away with it. Team B loses 2 FT opportunities and a possession, don't they, if you ignore it? Certainly seems like an advantage to me.
Point taken. I just think it is a little much for 8th grade girls.
You would probably be right in the majority of cases too, imo. The problem with officiating this damn game though is that it gets harder every year instead of easier. This one is a good case-in-point, I think. It's always nice to say that they're kids, let the players decide the game, etc., etc., but the problem with making a one-size-fits-all judgement is that it sometimes doesn't fit all of the cases you might run into. A lot can depend on the particular situation. In this one, say you've got a very close game right at the end when this happens. A2, the 5th player, runs back on the floor, takes a pass uncovered, and now hits a bucket. Do you really want to ignore this particular case too- just like the other, almost similar ones that may have occurred in a blowout?

Like I said, I knew more 40 years ago than I know now.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 11:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,577
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
See Case Book Play 10.2.2. You got it right by rule.

Z
Actually, Z, 10.3.3 Situation C is more appropriate to this specific play.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 22, 2004, 11:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,612
Correct by rule perhaps.

I would not have called it.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 23, 2004, 12:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 423
This is one of those frustrating situations where you don't really want to penalize, but everybody sees the infraction. Coaches need to be aware of the substitution rules and this probably should be penalized if it's blatant.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 23, 2004, 02:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 944
IMO, call everything in any game as if it were the state championship. This is an easy way for the players to learn the game. Imagine if you didn't call it and the player did the same thing in a more important game in HS.

And if you treat every game as if it were the state championship, you might actually get to ref one someday.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 23, 2004, 09:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 1,847
Quote:
Originally posted by Jimgolf
IMO, call everything in any game as if it were the state championship. This is an easy way for the players to learn the game. Imagine if you didn't call it and the player did the same thing in a more important game in HS.

And if you treat every game as if it were the state championship, you might actually get to ref one someday.
It's all relative. If you call an 8th grade girl's game like the state championship, you are in for a very long night and whistles on nearly every trip up the court. I would argue that neither the players nor the fans would consider that appropriate officiating. You have to adjust your game to the level, keeping in mind advantage/disadvantage.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 24, 2004, 04:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Smitty
Quote:
Originally posted by Jimgolf
IMO, call everything in any game as if it were the state championship. This is an easy way for the players to learn the game. Imagine if you didn't call it and the player did the same thing in a more important game in HS.

And if you treat every game as if it were the state championship, you might actually get to ref one someday.
It's all relative. If you call an 8th grade girl's game like the state championship, you are in for a very long night and whistles on nearly every trip up the court. I would argue that neither the players nor the fans would consider that appropriate officiating. You have to adjust your game to the level, keeping in mind advantage/disadvantage.
Smitty, I'm with you. Treat every game with the concentration and energy that you would give at the state championship. But you can't call the game the same way. If these 8th graders are on a travelling team playing in the final rounds of a regional tournament, call it! But if they're the rec girls that just decided in November that basketball might be kinda fun, because they'll get to flirt with that cute Trevor Jackson who runs the clock, and they don't even know the difference between an over-and-back and an over-the-back(board), don't call it. That being said, I wouldn't just let it go. I'd choose a strategic moment to quietly let the player and/or coach know that this sort of inattention shouldn't happen again.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 24, 2004, 06:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Send a message via AIM to Back In The Saddle Send a message via MSN to Back In The Saddle Send a message via Yahoo to Back In The Saddle
If your idea of the right way to call a state championship is to do what's best for the level of ball you're calling, then I agree.

Last year I had the opportunity to call the league championship game of a girls 4-5th grade league. I called it the best I could for that level of ball. But you can bet your back side that it looked nothing like the 5A girls high school state championship. BTW, if one of the official's who called that state championship game were to work this little girls game, they would call to the level of these girls too.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:26pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1