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-   -   player/sub T (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/16064-player-sub-t.html)

chas Fri Oct 22, 2004 04:08pm

Had this happen in 8th grade girls game. Team A substitutes A6 for A1. A1 walks off the court. We have 5 in the game. As my partner is administrating the throw-in, A2 thinks that she was the one substituted for and she walks off the court right in front of her bench. The ball is now in play and coach of A sees only 4 players and yells for A2 to get back in the game. She runs right back onto the court. I called a T on her. As I'm reading 4.34.3 it says that an illegal sub becomes a player when the ball becomes live. So, was A2 an illegal sub that when the ball was live became legal? I'm more thinking that since she actually walked off the court when the ball was inbounded, the T was for unauthorized leaving of the court. I told the coach the T was for illegal substituting, but when he said she was already in the game I said then the T was for walking off the floor. Did I get this remotely correct?

Smitty Fri Oct 22, 2004 04:30pm

8th grade girls...let it go. Who was at a disadvantage?

zebraman Fri Oct 22, 2004 04:34pm

See Case Book Play 10.2.2. You got it right by rule.

Z

flsh224 Fri Oct 22, 2004 05:09pm

Little to tight
 
I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.

Jurassic Referee Fri Oct 22, 2004 05:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by flsh224
I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.
Actually team A will gain an advantage if they get away with it. Team B loses 2 FT opportunities and a possession, don't they, if you ignore it? Certainly seems like an advantage to me.

flsh224 Fri Oct 22, 2004 05:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by flsh224
I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.
Actually team A will gain an advantage if they get away with it. Team B loses 2 FT opportunities and a possession, don't they, if you ignore it? Certainly seems like an advantage to me.

Point taken. I just think it is a little much for 8th grade girls.

Jurassic Referee Fri Oct 22, 2004 05:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by flsh224
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by flsh224
I think you might have been a little over zealous. I don't think anyone gained an advantage.
Actually team A will gain an advantage if they get away with it. Team B loses 2 FT opportunities and a possession, don't they, if you ignore it? Certainly seems like an advantage to me.

Point taken. I just think it is a little much for 8th grade girls.

You would probably be right in the majority of cases too, imo. The problem with officiating this damn game though is that it gets harder every year instead of easier. This one is a good case-in-point, I think. It's always nice to say that they're kids, let the players decide the game, etc., etc., but the problem with making a one-size-fits-all judgement is that it sometimes doesn't fit all of the cases you might run into. A lot can depend on the particular situation. In this one, say you've got a very close game right at the end when this happens. A2, the 5th player, runs back on the floor, takes a pass uncovered, and now hits a bucket. Do you really want to ignore this particular case too- just like the other, almost similar ones that may have occurred in a blowout?

Like I said, I knew more 40 years ago than I know now. :D

Nevadaref Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
See Case Book Play 10.2.2. You got it right by rule.

Z

Actually, Z, 10.3.3 Situation C is more appropriate to this specific play.

BktBallRef Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:49pm

Correct by rule perhaps.

I would not have called it.

SMEngmann Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:06am

This is one of those frustrating situations where you don't really want to penalize, but everybody sees the infraction. Coaches need to be aware of the substitution rules and this probably should be penalized if it's blatant.

Jimgolf Sat Oct 23, 2004 02:25am

IMO, call everything in any game as if it were the state championship. This is an easy way for the players to learn the game. Imagine if you didn't call it and the player did the same thing in a more important game in HS.

And if you treat every game as if it were the state championship, you might actually get to ref one someday.

Smitty Sat Oct 23, 2004 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimgolf
IMO, call everything in any game as if it were the state championship. This is an easy way for the players to learn the game. Imagine if you didn't call it and the player did the same thing in a more important game in HS.

And if you treat every game as if it were the state championship, you might actually get to ref one someday.

It's all relative. If you call an 8th grade girl's game like the state championship, you are in for a very long night and whistles on nearly every trip up the court. I would argue that neither the players nor the fans would consider that appropriate officiating. You have to adjust your game to the level, keeping in mind advantage/disadvantage.

rainmaker Sun Oct 24, 2004 04:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Smitty
Quote:

Originally posted by Jimgolf
IMO, call everything in any game as if it were the state championship. This is an easy way for the players to learn the game. Imagine if you didn't call it and the player did the same thing in a more important game in HS.

And if you treat every game as if it were the state championship, you might actually get to ref one someday.

It's all relative. If you call an 8th grade girl's game like the state championship, you are in for a very long night and whistles on nearly every trip up the court. I would argue that neither the players nor the fans would consider that appropriate officiating. You have to adjust your game to the level, keeping in mind advantage/disadvantage.

Smitty, I'm with you. Treat every game with the concentration and energy that you would give at the state championship. But you can't call the game the same way. If these 8th graders are on a travelling team playing in the final rounds of a regional tournament, call it! But if they're the rec girls that just decided in November that basketball might be kinda fun, because they'll get to flirt with that cute Trevor Jackson who runs the clock, and they don't even know the difference between an over-and-back and an over-the-back(board), don't call it. That being said, I wouldn't just let it go. I'd choose a strategic moment to quietly let the player and/or coach know that this sort of inattention shouldn't happen again.

Back In The Saddle Sun Oct 24, 2004 06:11pm

If your idea of the right way to call a state championship is to do what's best for the level of ball you're calling, then I agree.

Last year I had the opportunity to call the league championship game of a girls 4-5th grade league. I called it the best I could for that level of ball. But you can bet your back side that it looked nothing like the 5A girls high school state championship. BTW, if one of the official's who called that state championship game were to work this little girls game, they would call to the level of these girls too.


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