Changing your partner's call

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Judgment calls are those that involve adv/disadv. This is not one of these calls. [/B]

I signal 3 on a shot taken in my area of responsibility. You do the oh-no-no-no and signal that it's really a 2. I still freaking think that's it IS REALLY a 3- IN MY JUDGEMENT.

Now whatinthehell do we do? [/B][/QUOTE]

If you pregamed it as the fed advises in their bulletin you would begin the game with the understanding that the person who sees a foot on the line is by definiton correct.

That's whatinthehell we do. [/B][/QUOTE]And the official who didn't see a foot on the line, and is also 100% sure that he didn't see that foot on the line, and to top it all off, it's his call in the first place and no one elses, is now by definition incorrect?

The problem is that I would never dream of pre-gaming it the way that the FED advises. If you call OOB off of white, but I see a tip by blue, do I just say "Nope, white ball" and head the other way expecting you to let blue take a throw-in? If a dribbler steps on a line(your line in your area), and you call them OOB, does that mean that I can say- "nope, I didn't see them step on the line. It's still the dribbler's ball" and expect you to immediately give the ball back to the dribbler's team? There's no difference in doing any of this than also taking over a 2/3 point call. You're just substituting your judgement for your partner's, without bothering to check with them first.

Of course, somewhere along the line, maybe someone should point out to the goober in Fedlandia that came up with this little procedure that there already exists these funny little RULES in the damn book - i.e. R2-6- that says "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties" and R2-7-8(OFFICIALS DUTIES) -"signaling a 3-point goal...". [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe there's also a rule in there about 2 points being earned if the shooter is on or within the 3 point line, 3 points otherwise.

You don't seem too concerned with violating that one.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref

Hmmmm, I believe that we are discussing what is the best WAY to get the call right. You're assuming something completely different, I think. [/B]

No, not really. If your partner comes in to correct you, I'm assuming he is 100% sure or he wouldn't be coming in. [/B][/QUOTE]And what if YOU are 100% sure that you WERE 100% right and that your partner coming in had it wrong, are you still going to defer to your partner? Even if the call was in YOUR area of responsibility to start with? That's exactly why you should be discussing the call instead of trying to make your partner ASSUME your judgement.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Anything I render my decision on is what I would consider a judgement. Maybe it's my baseball mentalitybut, I'm feeling like nearly everything in the game of basketball is a judgement call.

No matter what I say, it is not going to move the shooter's foot. But it is my judgement whether the shooter's foot is on the line or behind it and therefore it is my judgement whether this is a three-point attempt or a two-pointer. Not being allowed to use instant replay, an official must make that judgement.

Every officials manual I've looked at assigns particular sections of the floor and thereby, particular section of the three-point arc to an individual official. Shots at any ONE point along the arc are the responsibility of ONE official. See your mechanics manual paragraph 205, diagrams 7 & 8, for 2-man and diagrams 37, 38, & 39 for 3-man.

If it is your section of the arc, I will be expecting you to call it. And I'm not going to correct your call to all of the audience if I think you got it wrong. Egregiously wrong? Okay, I will probably offer you some help. BUT I WOULD NEVER STOP THE CLOCK AND YELL TO THE TABLE THAT "MY PARTNER WAS WRONG. THAT WAS A TWO POINT SHOT." and then expect to just continue on.

Your authority on the court is just the same as mine and I'm not going to over-rule your decisions. If you need my help, I'll do all I can. But I am not going to over-rule your judgement of foot location.

Quite frankly I would not want to work with a partner that felt they could wantonly over-rule me with no consideration of my responsibilities/decisions. That doesn't inspire any kind of team spirit or partner respect. And that means you don't do a good job for that particular game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

[/B]

I believe there's also a rule in there about 2 points being earned if the shooter is on or within the 3 point line, 3 points otherwise.

You don't seem too concerned with violating that one. [/B][/QUOTE]How exactly do I know that I really did violate that one if I honestly think that I did get it right and my partner is wrong, and we don't discuss it? How do you know that your partner wasn't the one to violate that one when he tried to overrule your original call?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 12th, 2004 at 04:08 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Jeff, I was aware of the procedure and how it's used. What I vehemently disagree with is the school of thought that this procedure should be used on ALL 3-point calls. If you get one that is questionable in one of the official's minds, especially if that official maybe had the primary call in the first place, then some discussion SHOULD take place, imo.

I do not think anyone said this is the case for all 3 point shots. This is a very rare procedure used. It might happen mostly in transition or with pressure defenses.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I just don't think that you can make up a blanket procedure that will cover all of the situations that you're gonna run into out there. You better pre-game something that's gonna cover the situation where 2 officials disagree and they both still think that they each have the correct call. You gotta get together in that case.

Well that is why you discuss this in pregame. It is not uncommon for me to bring something up that a partner might disagree with on some level. I will never know if I do not bring it up as a topic or state my own opinion one what we should do. Even on out of bounds calls there is not much or any discussion at all. And this is so rare that you might go an entire season and not have one of these 3 point calls changed. I know with the level of official that I normally work with this is almost never an issue. I cannot tell you when the last time I was in a game where the clock had to be stopped to change a call. I can think of a couple of times where it was clear one official had a three point shot and the other had the foot on the line and one of the officials did not signal 3 points because they were unclear.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I believe there's also a rule in there about 2 points being earned if the shooter is on or within the 3 point line, 3 points otherwise.

You don't seem too concerned with violating that one. [/B]

How exactly do I know that I really did violate that one if I honestly think that that I did get it right and my partner is wrong, and we don't discuss it? How do you know that your partner wasn't the one to violate that one when he tried to overrule your original call? [/B][/QUOTE]

When my partner toots his whistle and puts up 2 fingers I know 3 things:

1. I aint perfect
2. I made this confession before the game
3. I trust him enough to defer when he speaks up to bail my @ss out.

That's how I know he got it right.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

How exactly do I know that I really did violate that one if I honestly think that that I did get it right and my partner is wrong, and we don't discuss it? How do you know that your partner wasn't the one to violate that one when he tried to overrule your original call? [/B]

When my partner toots his whistle and puts up 2 fingers I know 3 things:

1. I aint perfect
2. I made this confession before the game
3. I trust him enough to defer when he speaks up to bail my @ss out.

That's how I know he got it right.
[/B][/QUOTE]Yabut.....

What about the extremely rare circumstance where you might have actually had the call right?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

When my partner toots his whistle and puts up 2 fingers I know 3 things:

1. I aint perfect
2. I made this confession before the game
3. I trust him enough to defer when he speaks up to bail my @ss out.

That's how I know he got it right.
[/B]

Yabut.....

What about the extremely rare circumstance where you might have actually had the call right? [/B][/QUOTE]

Ahhhh...that happens so rarely that I don't worry about it.

[mick]

I refuse to guess on threes.
If I see a three, I mark it.
If I don't see it, I do nothing except get into a better position next time.

If my partner marks a three, it is a three.
If my partner fails to mark a three, it may be a three.
mick

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Many seem to be missing the point - don't over-rule your partner.

One foot can only be in one location at any one time. One foot - one location. Your eyes see the foot and know that it can only be in one location. My eyes work the same way. One foot - one location. The problem is two sets of eyes (yours and mine) may "see" two different locations... for the one foot. Compound that with the fact that most players have two feet... two sets of eyes now we have four possibly different foot locations. Whose set of eyes are correct? I don't think it is just whoever says they saw it last obviously sees most accurately.

Several of you must not have understood my question to Mick about "What time is it there?" Your perception of the time is displayed on your watch. My perception is displayed on my watch. The real, true time is completely independent of either one of those watches. But my perception is that my watch is 100% correct... as is yours for your watch. Whose is right? Perhaps neither one. This is why decisions are rendered by ONE official, and not two, or a committee.

One official has responsibility for making the determination of 3 or 2-point attempt based upon where that shot is taken. The time to make the effort to get the call correct is not after the shot has been taken but before. Get in the position to make that call before the shot is taken. That's what I do, and my partner has never come to me and said he was going to over-rule my 3-pointer decision. I have already made the effort to get that call correct... the first time. Don't come tell me my effort was wasted and that you are going to over-rule my decision. Your watch reads different than mine... but we weren't supposed to be looking at your watch.

This getting the call right is some, ONE, official's responsibility based upon the location of the call. If I have any doubt about my position and view of the play, I will ask for help. But if I make the decision, I don't want you over-ruling me.

And it is surely not "He who makes the call lastly, makes it most correctly." That's the garbage of which I originally spoke.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Oct 12th, 2004 at 04:45 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Yabut.....

What about the extremely rare circumstance where you might have actually had the call right?

Then maybe we have a 2 second conversation. Either way is going to take about the same amount of time it would to change the call.

The only situations I have ever seen changed in any of my games are when you have a signal for a 3 that is changed to a two.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Then maybe we have a 2 second conversation.

And what is the result of that conversation? Are you still gonna let your partner overrule you?

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Every officials manual I've looked at assigns particular sections of the floor and thereby, particular section of the three-point arc to an individual official. Shots at any ONE point along the arc are the responsibility of ONE official. See your mechanics manual paragraph 205, diagrams 7 & 8, for 2-man and diagrams 37, 38, & 39 for 3-man.

Designating an area as your "primary" area implies that it is also your partner's "secondary" (or tertiary) area. This is why it is not called your "sole" area.

The fact that you would be insulted by having your error corrected by your partner means that you should make this very clear in your pre-game. Just remember that your real primary responsibilty is to get the calls right, not just to look good.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Jimgolf

[/b]

The fact that you would be insulted by having your error corrected by your partner means that you should make this very clear in your pre-game. Just remember that your real primary responsibilty is to get the calls right, not just to look good. [/B][/QUOTE]That's the problem right there,Jim. What if Tony is sure that he didn't make an "error" of any kind, but instead was confident that he had the call RIGHT? I think that any official would be insulted under those circumstances if someone subsequently tried to overrule them. I sureashell would be, and I guarantee you that we WOULD be discussing it if somebody tried it with me.

Notwithstanding, of course, the fact that the rules as written will NOT allow one official to overrule another official anyway.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Many seem to be missing the point - don't over-rule your partner.

One foot can only be in one location at any one time. One foot - one location. Your eyes see the foot and know that it can only be in one location. My eyes work the same way. One foot - one location. The problem is two sets of eyes (yours and mine) may "see" two different locations... for the one foot. Compound that with the fact that most players have two feet... two sets of eyes now we have four possibly different foot locations. Whose set of eyes are correct? I don't think it is just whoever says they saw it last obviously sees most accurately.

OK, what is your point? I am not saying that you guess, I am saying you better know. Like the foot is completely over the line and you are possibly blocked or out of position (like being in transition). I know I would want the lead to let me know if on a fast break shot a 3 point shot. I might be guessing while he sees the play all the way. Is that the Lead's area? No it is not. Do they have a better look? More than likely they do if you ask me.

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Several of you must not have understood my question to Mick about "What time is it there?" Your perception of the time is displayed on your watch. My perception is displayed on my watch. The real, true time is completely independent of either one of those watches. But my perception is that my watch is 100% correct... as is yours for your watch. Whose is right? Perhaps neither one. This is why decisions are rendered by ONE official, and not two, or a committee.

That is a really bad analogy if you ask me. That has nothing to do with what we actually see or can be seen on video. But if my job has the time set correctly to what my watch says, that time is the only one that matters if you ask me. Your watch is only a reference point. Not a very good comparison if you ask me. I got your point, but it does not apply to this discussion.

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
One official has responsibility for making the determination of 3 or 2-point attempt based upon where that shot is taken. The time to make the effort to get the call correct is not after the shot has been taken but before. Get in the position to make that call before the shot is taken. That's what I do, and my partner has never come to me and said he was going to over-rule my 3-pointer decision. I have already made the effort to get that call correct... the first time. Don't come tell me my effort was wasted and that you are going to over-rule my decision. Your watch reads different than mine... but we weren't supposed to be looking at your watch.

If you think only one official has this responsibility, you need to go back and read the mechanics books of all the levels. Both the NF and the CCA mechanics books make it clear there are areas on the floor that two officials could very easily look at the same shot.

This is not a foul call. This is not even an out of bounds call or violation call. A 3 point shot is a different animal. If you feel a personal afront to that decision, I guess you have that right. But we can view video tape all day long about a change and sometimes not agree. Video tape can show a foot on the line or not with the right angle. I would rather go with a partner that knows his foot was on the line than try to hold on to some theory that I "worked hard to make that call."

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
This getting the call right is some, ONE, official's responsibility based upon the location of the call. If I have any doubt about my position and view of the play, I will ask for help. But if I make the decision, I don't want you over-ruling me.

I do not think anyone said they were overruling you. But if you want to be wrong, I will let you be wrong. Then I will tell the assignor that you insisted on being wrong. But if I had some coverage area, I am making a decision. I am not going down to burn for one 3 point call that you want to be stubborn about. Not sure why I have to have a long conversation with you to say, "I saw his foot was on the line." Oh well.

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
And it is surely not "He who makes the call lastly, makes it most correctly." That's the garbage of which I originally spoke.

Well Tony, I think it is garbage that you think only one official has this call. But you have continued to state it despite what the mechanics cover.

Peace