Changing your partner's call

[mick]

Originally posted by Goose
This thread actually prompted me into registering!!

I usually try and keep my mouth shut, but this thread has had an adverse effect on me. After 18 years of officiating, I'm wondering after reading some of these egotistical comments if I really want to work any longer. And ref's wonder why there is such a negative attitude towards them!

Unlike some of the posters here, I have not done a perfect game. I can tell you, when I do, I will quit, because everything will go downhill from there. I have always instructed in my pregames if at any time you see something do not hesitate to call it, period. I think it is more important to get it right in the end than to hurt my ego or make me look inferior. If that is the case, so be it. I get yelled at anyway so what makes this any different? The most important thing is to get the call right. Besides if I miss something and my partner picks it up, kudo to him and us as a team. It will only make me work harder to get into better position, besides 99.9 percent of the time no one will know nor will they care as long as the call is correct.

I'm in the same boat as Chuck and will say that I have worked with him, and I adhere to the belief that trust is really the most important thing out there. With that being said, if he were to stop play after I signaled a 3, and changed it to a two, instead of being upset, I'd say thanks! Again, we're a team. I know for a fact that he would not have blown a correction if he had not seen it differently and truth be told, I can live with that even if I feel I am right.

Our board takes the position of no need for a conference. Conferences just cause more problems which in the end usually require an explanation to one or both coaches. Once you start conferencing, it is hard to stop and I'm sure we have all worked with conference freaks who think they are running a clinic. This does not mean there isn't a time and place for a conference, but they should be the exception and last resort IMO. Basketball is not football and I think conferences can only detract and give the appearance that we are not on the same page, even if we get the call right.

Basically, this thread is a pathetic picture of officials arguing over a simple matter. There is a procedure in place and our board has used it for years without incident that I know of.


goose

How do you really feel about it, goose?
Welcome to the forum.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Goose
Jurassic,

>EGOTISTICAL??? PATHETIC????

>Because we don't agree with you?

>Well, screw you, Goose. Howzat for name calling.

>Lah me. Another clown shows up to crap on somebody for >doing the exact same thing that he's doing himself.

Folks, do I need to say more? I rest my case your honor!

Well, Goose, I just learned a whole bunch about you too. Anyone who disagrees with you is egotistical and pathetic. Well, I don't think that I've called anyone names so far in this thread, or dismissed their position out-of-hand as being "pathetic" either. If that's the sum contribution that you're gonna make to this Forum, you might as well disappear for another 18 years, imo.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Goose
I'm in the same boat as Chuck and will say that I have worked with him,

Hmmm, I'm stumped, Goose. Drop me an email and reveal your secret identity!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Aaahhh yes, the subtle finesse of the boisterous over-ruler. Which way to the pier?

All for a point. No not to make clear an important concept... I mean a point, a single point, a score of one, in a basketball game full of single points. One official goes on, unaware of the inflicted injury as the town braggadocio, another goes to the pier of infamy, and one team looses a single point in a game of missed shots and violations.

A different perception.

I guess this has prepared me for when someone bragadocio does it to me. Yeah, whatever, partner. Water off a duck's back... at the pier.

I'm left thinking you both have egos that are far too tender to be doing this type of work. I'm also left thinking someone who doesn't value each and every single point doesn't get the idea of this whole I-win-you-lose stuff.

And I'm also left wondering whatinthehell is the big deal. Some of us have used this system, it works for us, and a power-that-is happens to think this might be a good way for everyone to do it. I agree with him/her/it.

If you're too concerned about being showed up in front of the assembled masses then demand your 20 second huddle before you finally agree to change your mind. But make sure you do the demanding during the pregame. Or forever hold your peace.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Aaahhh yes, the subtle finesse of the boisterous over-ruler. Which way to the pier?

All for a point. No not to make clear an important concept... I mean a point, a single point, a score of one, in a basketball game full of single points. One official goes on, unaware of the inflicted injury as the town braggadocio, another goes to the pier of infamy, and one team looses a single point in a game of missed shots and violations.

A different perception.

I guess this has prepared me for when someone bragadocio does it to me. Yeah, whatever, partner. Water off a duck's back... at the pier.

Tony -- I don't get it. Sorry. All I'm saying is that I don't need any help to look lousy. I do need a partner who wants us both to look good. This kind of overruling isn't accepted around here, and if someone does it, it makes both refs look ridiculous. That's just the perception. If we get together, and I change my call, that's teamwork and getting the call right. If my partner overrules me, we both lose any credibility we may have had. And after this thread, I'll be pre-gaming this every time.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rainmaker

If my partner overrules me, we both lose any credibility we may have had. And after this thread, I'll be pre-gaming this every time.

With whom do you lose credibility with? The coach? The fans? The evaluators?

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

1) I'm left thinking you both have egos that are far too tender to be doing this type of work.


2) If you're too concerned about being showed up in front of the assembled masses then demand your 20 second huddle before you finally agree to change your mind. But make sure you do the demanding during the pregame. Or forever hold your peace.
[/B][/QUOTE]1) What about me? What about poor JR? If you cut me, don't I bleed also? What about MY tender ego? Huh?

2) You're missing the point too. It's got absolutely nothing to do with being shown up, or JR's poor little ego(even though I certainly do enjoy a l'il pat on the head every now and then- or my ears scratched). It's about saying that you HAVE to use a procedure, without exception, in situations that the procedure was never intended to be used in. It might be great for 99% of the cases that come up, but there might be that one case where the original calling official was completely sure that he had the call right. If that's the case, then I AIN'T gonna change my mind, or the call, if I'm that sure that I had it right. This procedure is great for any occasion where there might be the slightest doubt, but it's not meant to be used in situations where 2 officials plain and simply disagree about a call. In that case, if the official that made the original call is adamant that he really had nailed the call, then he shouldn't be overruled. And certainly he shouldn't have to put up with some dildo changing his call without having the common decency to even talk to him about it first. And, yes, you certainly can pre-game to use both procedures if necessary. Not hard to do at all.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 13th, 2004 at 06:53 PM]

[SavaahnTy]

Chuck & goose, I agree with your thoughts of not stopping the game for this one type of incident. You both explain it well.

to everyone else....What I dont see is anyone who agrees with this position of not stopping the clock when changing the SIGNAL to a two point try attacking someone who disagrees with it.

Interesting.

To everyone else....for those who may think that Goose was attacking anyone in particular for doing something another may be doing ( and please correct me if I am wrong here Goose ) .. in my opinion, he was giving you his perception of someones reaction to an opposing viewpoint, while GIVING US HIS EXPLANATION OF HIS VIEWPOINT AND EXPERIENCE.

Bye Bye everyone

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1) What about me? What about poor JR? If you cut me, don't I bleed also? What about MY tender ego? Huh?

**** you, your ego and the horse you rode in on.

2) You're missing the point too. It's got absolutely nothing to do with being shown up, or JR's poor little ego(even though I certainly do enjoy a l'il pat on the head every now and then- or my ears scratched). It's about saying that you HAVE to use a procedure, without exception, in situations that the procedure was never intended to....

blah blah blah nothing nothing nothing hey you kids get off my lawn....hmmm what's this?...some dildo changing his call...blah blah blah

I'll try again: if we pregame it this way then by definition the...dil...errr...the guy changing the call is correct and the non-dil...errr...the other guy is wrong.

No fuss no muss life goes on.

[ChuckElias]

What about the horse his ego rode in on?

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
What about the horse his ego rode in on?

I think the horse is done.
JR said it was "rein in" there today.

[Goose]

Savaahnty,

Thanks. I was not personally attacking anyone. I was merely trying to point out what a casual observer's impressions were after reading 80 plus entries at one time.

In the end, as others have indicated, things like this should be covered in the pregame. And if your Referee does not bring it up, my only advice is to bring it up yourself.

As I said, Chuck and I have worked together and I have complete trust in his abiltiy and judgement, and will concede in this matter, just as I am sure he would do with me.

As we talked about this last night, I would ask any of the officials here, what motive would possess your partner to change this call from a 3 to a 2?

Is he/she trying to embarass you in front of, a. the crowd, b. the coach(es), c. the observer?

Is he/she simply a jackass causing trouble?

Is he/she a new official that really doesn't know any better?

Is he/she putting themselves on the line of fire becasue they have seen something different than you and simply want to get it right, regardless of how it makes the team look?

I ask all of you, really, what possible motivation could I have to change Chuck's call in this case, other than the fact that I have definite knowledge that something is amiss? And that my friends is where the rubber meets the road IMO. I trust my partner. I trust him to bale me out if need be, just as I would return the favor if the sitation warrants it.

So, what motivation could possibly make me want to stop play and correct a scoring situation?

I'm out...goose

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick

I think the horse is done.
JR said it was "rein in" there today.

Definitely gets the Post of the Week trophy!

(...insert appropriate graphic here...)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Goose
After 18 years of officiating, I'm wondering after reading some of these egotistical comments if I really want to work any longer. And ref's wonder why there is such a negative attitude towards them!

Unlike some of the posters here, I have not done a perfect game.

Once you start conferencing, it is hard to stop and I'm sure we have all worked with conference freaks who think they are running a clinic.

Basically, this thread is a pathetic picture of officials arguing over a simple matter.

Yeah right, Goose, you weren't personally attacking somebody. Telling them that they're egotistical, pathetic conference freaks who think that they're perfect isn't an attack. Nosiree, Goose. That's just your little way of telling somebody that you disagree slightly with their rule interpretation.

Well, in the immortal words of Dan_Ref- "*** you, your ego and the horse you rode in on!"

Please don't take that as a personal attack either.

[rainmaker]