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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 03:02pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
I think that a future rule change should allow a penalty of 3 shots for any technical foul which interferes with a 3-point attempt.
End of game situation like this, more than 3 FTAs are needed. A 70% free throw shooter is going hit 3 of 3 only 34% of the time.
What if it was an intentional personal foul committed by one of the 5 legal players, how would you award more than 3 free throws in that case???

In the situation that this thread is about, we must find a way to give the team that's behind at least 3 shots.

Also, on a T, you can put any player in to shoot the shots. So naturally the coach will put in his best shooter.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 05:39pm
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If we're talking about a normal three point shot, the perhaps 4 shots are in order. If, however, we're talking about a half-court bomb, three would be plenty to make up for the lost opportunity.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 07:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
I think that a future rule change should allow a penalty of 3 shots for any technical foul which interferes with a 3-point attempt.
End of game situation like this, more than 3 FTAs are needed. A 70% free throw shooter is going hit 3 of 3 only 34% of the time.
Well...not quite, but this is close to what they teach in statistics 101.

If you're in Honesdale over the weekend Chuck will be happy to buy you a diet coke and I'll bore you with my explanation.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 07:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
If you're in Honesdale over the weekend Chuck will be happy to buy you a diet coke and I'll bore you with my explanation.
You can just give him one of the Cokes that you've already promised me!
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 07:50pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
I've got 3 T's

1. Illegal entry.

2. 6 players, because of the nature fo the play, and the ball not becoming dead on the official's whistle, we have a ball that is still live, and therefore, 6 players on the court with a live ball is illegal.

3. Unsporting Foul, if this isn't an unsporting act, than what is.

I'd only count 1 and 3 as indirect T's toward the coach. Because B6 becomes a player upon an illegal entry when the ball is live, therefore is no longer bench personel when this T is called. And since the unporting act started when the player was still bench personel, the coach should also be penalized for it.

Those are just my thoughts on the subject.
Don't see how you can have both 2 AND 3. If A6 is a 6th player, then the block is not an unsporting foul. I could see going with either your number 1 and 2 together, or 1 and 3 together, but not all three. And I prefer 1 and 3 simply because then you can boot A6.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 09:43pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
I've got 3 T's

1. Illegal entry.

2. 6 players, because of the nature fo the play, and the ball not becoming dead on the official's whistle, we have a ball that is still live, and therefore, 6 players on the court with a live ball is illegal.

3. Unsporting Foul, if this isn't an unsporting act, than what is.

I'd only count 1 and 3 as indirect T's toward the coach. Because B6 becomes a player upon an illegal entry when the ball is live, therefore is no longer bench personel when this T is called. And since the unporting act started when the player was still bench personel, the coach should also be penalized for it.

Those are just my thoughts on the subject.

ref18:

Read my post from last night. If the official sees B6 enter the playing court illegally Team B cannot be charged with a technical foul for having six players on the court. B6's technical foul for illegally entering the court negates Team B being charged with six players on the court. Since the official saw the illegal entry by B6, then the second, and only other technical foul that can be charged against Team B is an unsportsmanlike technical foul charged against B6 of interfering with A1's field goal attempt.


Now, lets look at the original play in a different way. Lets assume that the officials did not see B6 illegally enter the court and did not realize that Team B did not have six players on the court, until B6 blocked A1's field goal attempt at the buzzer. The only infraction that can be penalized is Team B having six players on the court.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 09:51pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
MTD, your scenario works fine if you see the player coming onto the court. In fact, if you see it quick enough, you can blow the whistle for the illegal entry before the shot is taken; in which case A gets two shots and the ball with a few seconds left. Remember, as has been mentioned, this is the 2nd half, so B6 has to cross the midcourt line to interfere with a decent 3 point attempt.

A) If the officials don't catch the 6th player thing until after the "block," I am getting them for an illegal entry and playing with 6. Bottom line, I'm finding a way to get A four free throws if there isn't time on the clock.

I think most coaches would prefer their best shooter get 4 free throws than a three point shot anyway.

B) If I see B6 running onto the court, and blow the whistle and he's blocking the shot as time expires (no one heard the whistle), I'm getting him for illegal entry and dead ball contact technical fouls. Four shots.

And trust me, I would see contact on this play.

Snags:

Isn't your (B) what I said I would do in my post?

As far as your (A) is concerned read my post of earlier tonight. You cannot have two technical fouls: one for illegal entry and one for six players. If you do not see the illegal entry, you only have six players on the court.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 10:16pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]
Now, lets look at the original play in a different way. Lets assume that the officials did not see B6 illegally enter the court and did not realize that Team B did not have six players on the court, until B6 blocked A1's field goal attempt at the buzzer. The only infraction that can be penalized is Team B having six players on the court.

[/B][/QUOTE]Care to cite a rule or case book play that will back up your opinion above, Mark? If B6 hadda punched A1, would your same opinion still hold?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 24, 2004, 10:17pm
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Mark,

I think you can have combine a T for illegal entry and for 6 players. We can call a T for illegal entry if the table informs us, can we not? We don't have to see it happen. You've got two separate infractions here.

My solution was different in one portion. If I've blown my whistle before A1 tries his shot, and no one hears it due to crown noise (or even if A1 and B6 are the only two who don't hear it), the ball is dead and the shot will not count. A will have any player take 4 shots, one for the illegal entry and one for the dead ball contact. B6 is done. If I don't blow the ball dead, then we've got playing with 6 and a personal foul on B6. I'll give A1 3 shots, and AX two more. B6 doesn't even get a T in this scenario, though, since I can't justify a T for liveball contact.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 25, 2004, 07:16am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Now, lets look at the original play in a different way. Lets assume that the officials did not see B6 illegally enter the court and did not realize that Team B did not have six players on the court, until B6 blocked A1's field goal attempt at the buzzer. The only infraction that can be penalized is Team B having six players on the court.

[/B]
Care to cite a rule or case book play that will back up your opinion above, Mark? If B6 hadda punched A1, would your same opinion still hold? [/B][/QUOTE]



Jurassic Referee:

I don't have my rules books in front of me because my basketball rules briefcases (see posts by Chuck and Dan) are still up in the attic, but I do not have to quote a rule to tell you that if you discover Team B playing with six players, you do not charge B6 with a technical foul for illegal entry and Team B with a technical foul for having six players participating on the court at the same time. How do I know? There is not one basketball official here that has not had at least one game in his/her career where he/she has discovered a team playing with six players and each and every time that has happened we all have only charged the team with a technical foul for having too many players on the court; there were no other technical fouls involved.

If B6 had punched A1, then I would have two separate fouls, a technical foul against Team B for too many players on the court and one for the flagrant foul by B6 for punching A1.

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 25, 2004, 08:08am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snaqwells
Mark,

I think you can have combine a T for illegal entry and for 6 players. We can call a T for illegal entry if the table informs us, can we not? We don't have to see it happen. You've got two separate infractions here.

Really? Suppose B6 thinks he should be in the game with 10:00 left in the first half, so he runs onto the court, plays (otherwise legal) defense and steals the ball. Now the official realizes that team B has six players. Are you going to charge two Ts?

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 25, 2004, 08:12am
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Quote:
Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

End of game situation like this, more than 3 FTAs are needed. A 70% free throw shooter is going hit 3 of 3 only 34% of the time.
And the chances of hitting the three-pointer are ...?

I'm not sure that only three throws are any disadvantage
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 25, 2004, 08:21am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Now, lets look at the original play in a different way. Lets assume that the officials did not see B6 illegally enter the court and did not realize that Team B did not have six players on the court, until B6 blocked A1's field goal attempt at the buzzer. The only infraction that can be penalized is Team B having six players on the court.
Care to cite a rule or case book play that will back up your opinion above, Mark? If B6 hadda punched A1, would your same opinion still hold? [/B]


Jurassic Referee:

I don't have my rules books in front of me because my basketball rules briefcases (see posts by Chuck and Dan) are still up in the attic, but I do not have to quote a rule to tell you that if you discover Team B playing with six players, you do not charge B6 with a technical foul for illegal entry and Team B with a technical foul for having six players participating on the court at the same time. How do I know? There is not one basketball official here that has not had at least one game in his/her career where he/she has discovered a team playing with six players and each and every time that has happened we all have only charged the team with a technical foul for having too many players on the court; there were no other technical fouls involved.

If B6 had punched A1, then I would have two separate fouls, a technical foul against Team B for too many players on the court and one for the flagrant foul by B6 for punching A1.

[/B][/QUOTE]Mark, so you're telling me that if B6 interferes with the play by punching A1, you'd call that another, separate "T"- but if B6 instead interfered with the play by blocking a shot, you wouldn't call a "T" for that act at all? What's your logic on that? They're both separate, unsporting acts that are completely different from the other act of having too many players on the floor. You're not being very consistent in calling it one way under one circumstance, and a completely different way under a slightly different circumstance.

As for not having your books handy, please let me refresh your memory- NFHS rules- NCAA are basically the same:
- Rule 10-4-1(g)- "Bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to acts of conduct such as team member(s) not remaining seated on the bench....".
- Rule 10-4-2--"Bench personnel shall not enter the court unless by permission to attend an injured player".
- Rule 10-1-6-- "A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously".
- Rule 10-4-1- "Bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul". That one leaves just about anything up to the official's judgement as to whether an act is unsporting or not.

Mark, please note that B6 committed all of those acts listed above, and in sequence. There is nothing in the book that I know of that states that you CAN'T charge B6 with a T" for three of these acts (6 on the floor being a team "T"), as you are trying to aver. I believe that something similar to that was pointed out to me by an official that once called 3 separate "T"s on a play where A1 jumped off of A2's back, and then dunked the ball. Iow, there's nothing in the rules that will say that your opinion is correct, and that Snaq's and Ref18's aren't. The play simply isn't covered in the rules. Camron's position of using R2-3 to award 3 points and call a "T" on B6 is just as valid and defensible as any other opinion that has been given so far also.

All I know is that I'm gonna come up with something on this play that will ensure that team A will not be disadvantaged in any way by B6's act, and that B6's butt is gonna also get run out of the game for giving me a headache in the first place. And as the play isn't specifically covered in the rules, there are different ways to accomplish that objective while covering my butt at the same time.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 25th, 2004 at 10:21 AM]
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 25, 2004, 10:06am
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 25, 2004, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
I think that a future rule change should allow a penalty of 3 shots for any technical foul which interferes with a 3-point attempt.
End of game situation like this, more than 3 FTAs are needed. A 70% free throw shooter is going hit 3 of 3 only 34% of the time.
Well...not quite, but this is close to what they teach in statistics 101.

If you're in Honesdale over the weekend Chuck will be happy to buy you a diet coke and I'll bore you with my explanation.
Feel free to explain here.

I will say that I've seen a team down by three in the last three seconds of game shooting three shots exactly (yep, you guessed it) three times in my career and (of course) three of them made three of three.

One was in OT of a state final, and the kid who was something like a 60%er made three with NO time on the clock and his team won it in double OT. Unreal.

Another was my team, when I was an assistant. We had a 55% shooter hit three of three with :03 left in regulation as we came back from 18 down with 5:45 left. We won on a double OT buzzer beater by a freshman who was only in because four others had fouled out. The girl who made the three-of-three only missed one more FT all year and finished at 67%.

The last was as a head coach, we fouled a three-point shooter with :01 left up by three. (Ugh.) She hit them all but we won in overtime.
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