bat the ball repeatedly to the air

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ysong
[

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him". [/B][/QUOTE]

So you do not believe there are any *rules* to stop this kind of play at all? [/B][/QUOTE]

There's no need to stop it. The play is legal.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker
A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while.

Traveling? Hmmmm...I don't think so. We better think about this a little more.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Traveling? Hmmmm...I don't think so. We better think about this a little more.

Well, think out loud, then, because I don't follow you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Well, think out loud, then, because I don't follow you.

Juulie, is it EVER possible to travel during a dribble? (hint- R4-15-4NOTE1).

R4-15-2 may be a l'il bit germane too.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Well, think out loud, then, because I don't follow you.

Is the really tall player holding the ball?

Is the really tall player passing the ball to himself?

Or is the really tall player dribbling the ball?

[ysong]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Is the really tall player holding the ball?

Is the really tall player passing the ball to himself?

Or is the really tall player dribbling the ball?

No, he is not holding the ball. His bat is clean enough to even raise any suspicion of holding.

Yes, definately he is passing to himself, but without holding the ball. (or even without the ball resting on his fingers)

No, he is not dribbling as the way we usually see. The ball never touches the floor. But it seems like he is bounching the ball between him and the sky.

And he is going anywhere he wants, front court, back court, back and forth, longer than 5 seconds, longer than 10 seconds, longer than 24 seconds, until the end of the game. and no one can call time out.

I really wish the "rules" can stop him.

[WeekendRef]

I keep waiting for the punchline in this post....
If the player is that talented that he can tap the ball to himself all over the court without anyone taking it from him then more power to him !!! BTW I would love to actually see this in person as the reactions from the coaches would be priceless !

[ysong]

Originally posted by WeekendRef
I keep waiting for the punchline in this post....
If the player is that talented that he can tap the ball to himself all over the court without anyone taking it from him then more power to him !!! BTW I would love to actually see this in person as the reactions from the coaches would be priceless !

I am sorry if I make you think this is a joke. By no means, it is not intended to be.

What if a 7-footer in a high school team. He does not need superb talent to acheive that, at least for a couple of "self-passes" to gain unfair advantage.

My appologies if this make you think it is a joke again.

[WeekendRef]

Ysong ,
Please don't think I was trying to belittle your post . I just had a mental picture of a guy running all over the "Backcourt, frontcourt and all over" and the absolute chaos this would cause especially if it was a close game and the defensive team was trying to steal the ball . As a ref I can just imagine the defensive cach screaming at me that it was a travel, backcourt violation etc etc and me just giving him the two shoulder shrug .
Dennis Rodman was a guy I can remember that used this 'self pass" with much success . He was simply able to jump quicker then anyone else when going for a rebound and would tap the ball up 2,3,4 times untill he got to an area he could finally secure the rebound .

[FrankHtown]

If, in your judgement, it's "controlled" then he has possession, does he not? I also was under the impression touching the ball twice before it hits the floor was a double dribble. I believe rainmaker cited the case book source of batting the ball over a defender's head, than touching it again before it hit the floor. Caveat Emptor; I am not very familiar with NCAA.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Juulie, is it EVER possible to travel during a dribble? (hint- R4-15-4NOTE1).

R4-15-2 may be a l'il bit germane too.

Well, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think I said he was travelling DURING a dribble. Perhpas my vocab is weak here. Let me try to word it differently. A1 dribbles toward defender. For one of his touches, he taps the ball up over a defender's head. He steps around the defender and touches the ball a second time before it hits the ground. That's not legal, is it? Should I call it something different from a travel, is that what you're getting at? Sheez, all this thinking is starting to make my brain smoke!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
If, in your judgement, it's "controlled" then he has possession, does he not? I also was under the impression touching the ball twice before it hits the floor was a double dribble. I believe rainmaker cited the case book source of batting the ball over a defender's head, than touching it again before it hit the floor. Caveat Emptor; I am not very familiar with NCAA.

Rainmaker said that it was travelling. She didn't say that it was a double dribble.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
If, in your judgement, it's "controlled" then he has possession, does he not? I also was under the impression touching the ball twice before it hits the floor was a double dribble. I believe rainmaker cited the case book source of batting the ball over a defender's head, than touching it again before it hit the floor. Caveat Emptor; I am not very familiar with NCAA.

I don't think so. "Control" isn't the issue. "Player Control" as defined in the rulebook is the issue. "Holding or ddribbling the ball." In tapping the ball he can use as much control as he wants as long as he doesn't "Hold" (think volleyball.) Once he establishes Player Control the rules change a little. Now touching with or without holding becomes an issue.

[FrankHtown]

OK, I'm coming to the conclusion, this is not a travel. The violation should be a double-dribble. Again, using the example of batting the ball over the defender's head and touching it before it hits the floor, this is not a travel, it is a double-dribble. I believe the case book disregards the number of steps taken, it is the fact the ball was touched twice before it hit the ground.
Again, it is judgement whether the player is "fumbling" or not. If he can bat it all the way down the floor, I'd have to be really convinced he was "fumbling"

[ysong]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

"Control" isn't the issue. "Player Control" as defined in the rulebook is the issue.

Totally agree.

There is no doubt that he is in total control of the ball. but the NCAA rule (and very likely all other rules too) specifically denies that there is a team control at these time, let alone player control.

The NCAA rule 4-13-4(e) states that "There shall be no team control during:
the period that follows any of these acts (a-d) while the ball is being batted (from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control;"

What do I miss here by concluding that NCAA rules are powerless against this kind of play?

Thanks.