block/charge

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by oc
A1 is driving the lane and jumps toward the hoop. B1 comes into block the path, after A1 is airborn (legal guarding position is not set). A1 with the ball in their right hand pushes B1 with their left arm/elbow. If A1 had kept their arm to themself it would have been a blocking foul on B1. What's the call?

Jim Golf: Here is the original. Post #1 on page #1. What could be clearer? Rule 10-6-1 says that this is a PC foul. Legal guarding position doesn't apply because the illegal contact by the shooter occured before LGP came into play. Are you saying something different?

[rainmaker]

Overall, it's a very interesting question. Does it have to do with the fact that the shooter's arm made contact before the bodies collided?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Overall, it's a very interesting question. Does it have to do with the fact that the shooter's arm made contact before the bodies collided?

Okay, well it feels pretty dorky to have my question post just seconds after the answer!

[Jimgolf]

Jurassic, I'm not saying anything different regarding the original post. Push is PC foul. In his follow up post, oc says:

"In the play in question I was B1 playing in a jerk ball game (rec ball). I was called for a block and didn't like the call as A1 saw me there and led with his elbow into my chest. (I thought I had gotten postion before A1 jumped as well but that's probably biased thinking-and not relevant to my question.) Thinking about the play later from an objective point of view I was wondering whether or not I might have called it exactly the same-blocking foul on myself."

.

A little more information than the original post, and made me wonder whether the accusation of a push by A1 was accurate, or whether this was B1's impression of the play. Clearly A1 has run into B1, but since B1 doesn't have LGP, the question is whether the arm contact is in the form of a push or normal player reaction to being run into by a defensive player. I tend to agree with the ref on this one.

[oc]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
Jurassic, I'm not saying anything different regarding the original post. Push is PC foul. In his follow up post, oc says:

.

A little more information than the original post, and made me wonder whether the accusation of a push by A1 was accurate, or whether this was B1's impression of the play. Clearly A1 has run into B1, but since B1 doesn't have LGP, the question is whether the arm contact is in the form of a push or normal player reaction to being run into by a defensive player. I tend to agree with the ref on this one.

I didn't give extra information at first because I don't care about that particular foul anymore. I was B1 in the play and definitely biased. However, the situation got me wondering what is the right call the next time I am reffing and see this play. Thanks to Jurrassic and others it looks like the call is PC-assuming the push by A1 is hard enough to warrant it. Otherwise it would be a block. Correct?

[Edited by oc on May 25th, 2004 at 12:45 AM]

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by oc
it looks like the call is PC-assuming the push by A1 is hard enough to warrant it. Otherwise it would be a block. Correct?

I'd say so....

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by oc

I don't give extra information at first because I don't care about that particular foul anymore. I was B1 in the play and definitely biased. However, the situation got me wondering what is the right call the next time I am reffing and see this play. Thanks to Jurrassic and others it looks like the call is PC-assuming the push by A1 is hard enough to warrant it. Otherwise it would be a block. Correct?

If the push is not hard enough either way, it is probably a no-call.

[dhodges007]

Any blood? Pick everyone up off the floor and play on... no-call

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I read the orignal post shortly after it was posted. I did not respond to it because at the time I did not have time to submit a detailed post.

Daryl and I umpired a boys' H.S. baseball game this afternoon and he told me about the thread. When I got home from watching our younger son's baseball game I decided to re-read the original post and read the entire thread.

I agree with Daryl. This is a blocking foul on B1. Remember, A1's arms go where ever A1 goes. I really would like to see A1 try to attempt such a manuever in the air with his arm. I do not believe the laws of physics will allow A1 to effect such a manuever.

For all those who think that I taught Daryl how to make long posts, I am going to have to disappoint you all. Daryl and I are both rules intepreters and teach an officiating class together. Daryl is also a respected evaluator of women's Div. I officials.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


I agree with Daryl. This is a blocking foul on B1. Remember, A1's arms go where ever A1 goes. I really would like to see A1 try to attempt such a manuever in the air with his arm. I do not believe the laws of physics will allow A1 to effect such a manuever.

Are you kidding? Seriously? You've never seen a shooter push off with an arm?

You need to get out more.

Btw, isn't A1 supposed to keep his arms inside his cone of verticality?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you kidding? Seriously? You've never seen a shooter push off with an arm?

You need to get out more.

Btw, isn't A1 supposed to keep his arms inside his cone of verticality?

I have seen a player with the ball push off with his arm, but once a player is airborne the laws of physics take over, especially Newton's Three Laws of Motion. I just do not believe that A1 can do what was described in the hypothentical play that was the original post of this thread.

And yes Daryl and I do get out quite a bit. Friday we leave for Hartford, CT, to officiate in the Starters Girls' Summer Classic.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.



I have seen a player with the ball push off with his arm, but once a player is airborne the laws of physics take over, especially Newton's Three Laws of Motion. I just do not believe that A1 can do what was described in the hypothentical play that was the original post of this thread.

And which of the 3 laws prevents A1 from extending his arm while airborne?

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

And yes Daryl and I do get out quite a bit. Friday we leave for Hartford, CT, to officiate in the Starters Girls' Summer Classic.

You fellas have some fun.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have seen a player with the ball push off with his arm, but once a player is airborne the laws of physics take over, especially Newton's Three Laws of Motion. I just do not believe that A1 can do what was described in the hypothentical play that was the original post of this thread.

Your reply doesn't answer the question. If, hypotheticallly, an airborne shooter pushes off with their arm (whether you believe they can do it or not isn't relevant), why is it a blocking foul instead of a PC foul? What happened to that "cone of verticality" that you taught us about, Mark? Why would you ignore the specific rule -NFHS rule 10-6-1- that I quoted above? What is the specific rules basis that you are relying on that will allow an airborne player to get away with pushing of with an arm?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I have seen a player with the ball push off with his arm, but once a player is airborne the laws of physics take over, especially Newton's Three Laws of Motion. I just do not believe that A1 can do what was described in the hypothentical play that was the original post of this thread.

And yes Daryl and I do get out quite a bit. Friday we leave for Hartford, CT, to officiate in the Starters Girls' Summer Classic.

MTD, Sr.

When the offensive player clears out, they usually don't MOVE the defensive player back as much as they create space by bouncing off the defender. It happens all the time, there is six inches between airborne players, the arm comes out and suddenly there is two feet between them.