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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 07:19am
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Angry

Had an issue this weekend in a AAU game which I think I handled correctly but I am not 100% sure .
Team A has a pair or real talkers for coaches and in the first 8 minutes or so both coaches question every call that goes against them . I finally had enough and walk over to the bench and ask who the Head Coach is . When the head coach replies that he is I remind him that I don't want to hear anymore from his assistant . I tell him I will speak to him (within reason) but under no circumstances will I allow the Assistant to continue to question the calls . Of course the head coach wants to know why the Asst is not allowed to "talk" to me . I remind him that he (head Coach) is the only one I have to acknowledge and one more word from the Asst and I will T him .
Fast forward to the next day same team is playing and we have no problems until half time when the Head coach tells me he read the rule book last night (Insert joke here)and I am completely wrong about the Asst coach not being able to question my calls .He does not do this in a very pleasant manner and I tell him that we can speak after the game and move away from the scorers table to center court where I can still here him telling me to be a man and admit I am wrong . I walk over again and tell him we can speak after the game and walk to center court again but to no avail . I finally T him up at half and wind up running the Asst during the second half (They were UP by 40 at the time). My partner completes the trifecta and runs a mouthy parent in the second half as well .
After my LONG story my question is :
What rule (if any) governs what the asst can or cannot do ?
Are Asst coaches legally entitled to "ride" the official ?
I would love it if someone was able to paste this rule because if there is none then that would require me to admit I was wrong to this coach (I will have him again) and that would not be pleasant .
I do not have my rule book and could find nothing in the case book....
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 07:54am
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Quote:
Originally posted by WeekendRef
Had an issue this weekend in a AAU game which I think I handled correctly but I am not 100% sure .
Team A has a pair or real talkers for coaches and in the first 8 minutes or so both coaches question every call that goes against them . I finally had enough and walk over to the bench and ask who the Head Coach is . When the head coach replies that he is I remind him that I don't want to hear anymore from his assistant . I tell him I will speak to him (within reason) but under no circumstances will I allow the Assistant to continue to question the calls . Of course the head coach wants to know why the Asst is not allowed to "talk" to me . I remind him that he (head Coach) is the only one I have to acknowledge and one more word from the Asst and I will T him .
Fast forward to the next day same team is playing and we have no problems until half time when the Head coach tells me he read the rule book last night (Insert joke here)and I am completely wrong about the Asst coach not being able to question my calls .He does not do this in a very pleasant manner and I tell him that we can speak after the game and move away from the scorers table to center court where I can still here him telling me to be a man and admit I am wrong . I walk over again and tell him we can speak after the game and walk to center court again but to no avail . I finally T him up at half and wind up running the Asst during the second half (They were UP by 40 at the time). My partner completes the trifecta and runs a mouthy parent in the second half as well .
After my LONG story my question is :
What rule (if any) governs what the asst can or cannot do ?
Are Asst coaches legally entitled to "ride" the official ?
I would love it if someone was able to paste this rule because if there is none then that would require me to admit I was wrong to this coach (I will have him again) and that would not be pleasant .
I do not have my rule book and could find nothing in the case book....

Assistant coaches are like children; they are to be seen and not heard.

Now that I have said my one liner of the day, the first thing one should do before any game especially AAU, YBOA, and etc. is to find out before the game starts who is the head coach. Now the official knows with whom to discuss important matters.

Does that mean officials should never converse with an assistant coach? No. I have no problem with an assistant coach asking me where the throw-in spot will be after a time-out or whether the throw-in is a designated spot or not. These are normal things that take place during the game, especially during timeouts. But other than things that are directly related to the game such as I just noted above, do not let an assistant coach get out of hand. And the best person to have deal with an assistant coach is the head coach. Just let the head coach that you do not want to hear his assistant coach and that he needs to get his bench under control. Head coaches know, or should know, that when an assistant coach gets a direct technical foul he gets a indirect one. That should get a head coach's attention.

As far as the head coach in your game, I would describe him as a horse's rear end, but that would be insulting to the two horses that my wife have owned.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 07:59am
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Quote:
Originally posted by WeekendRef

After my LONG story my question is :
What rule (if any) governs what the asst can or cannot do ?
Are Asst coaches legally entitled to "ride" the official ?
I would love it if someone was able to paste this rule because if there is none then that would require me to admit I was wrong to this coach (I will have him again) and that would not be pleasant .
I do not have my rule book and could find nothing in the case book....

Rule 10-4-1(a),(b),(e) & (g) are the references that you are looking for. No bench member, including the assistant coach, can disrespectfully address an official, attempt to influence an official's decision, object to an official's decision by rising from the bench and using gestures, or even be on their feet yapping in the first place. You can also note that there is absolutely NOTHING ANYWHERE in the rulebook that gives a head coach the right to question a call by an official at any time either. The only things that a coach is allowed to do by rule on the bench are outlined in Rule 10-5-1 & 2. Yapping at officials certainly isn't one of the coaching duties outlined there.A team captain may ask for a rules interpretation, under R3-1-2, but that's basically it.

The bottom line is that NO coach, by rule, is supposed to question your calls- head coach, assistant coach- don't matter. The degree and extent that they are allowed to do so is up to each individual official.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 10th, 2004 at 09:01 AM]
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 08:25am
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Questions to You

Would you take the "questioning" from a player either in the game or on the bench? Why would an assistant coach be any different? Anyone who crosses the line gets the "T". If they are getting close to the line and it is convenient, I will warn the captain or the head coach that the behavior of a player or coach is getting close to receiving a "T". If that does not work, the "T" is then called.

They don't have to agree with my calls, just coach. If they can't coach under these circumstances, the gentle reminder of a "T" usually gets their attention. I will say I have found the warnings to be extremely effective.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 08:29am
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JR is right, as usual; however, there is no rule that I know of that says that the assistant may not talk to you at all. Most of us don't really want to be distracted by the assistant. And we'll do what you did: tell the coach that I don't want to hear any more from the assistant.

But there's no rule that says the assistant can't respectfully address the officials. So I wouldn't ever tell a coach that "the rules say your assistant has to shut up" or something like that. I have said in the past, "Coach, your assistant is about to cost you two shots" or "Coach, your assistant is about to buy you a seat on the bench".

And if the coach comes at you with the rulebook, I'd just say "Coach, if he wants to know who the foul was on, fine. I will only discuss plays with you."
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 09:20am
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Don't forget that, as Chuck implied, when the assistant gets a T, the head now has an indirect and must remain seated. That's also in rule 10 under the penalty section.

When I did when I was in my second and third year was to memorize the names and numbers of each of the 10 rules. Then I memorized the most important section numbers from each rule. This isn't as hard as it sounds. When a coach questioned a rule, I'd give a number. The NEVER argued after that.

The other thing you can do with a smart-aleck who thinks he knows the rules is to say, "Yes, I've got my rule book out in the car. But do you have one handy right here?" Don't worry, they won't. Often that will back them off, even if you can't show them the rule. You'd probably better have a rule book in the car, just in case.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 09:27am
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Thanks for your replies . This board is an excellent learning resource for newer officials such as myself (Not too bad for older officials either)because we can learn a lot from those of you who have lived through a lot of these situations .
After the game that I mentioned I really was pissed off because of the way the coaches and parents acted and I really questioned why I was giving up my weekends to ref basketball (Aside from the fact that I didn't have to tend to my "Honey Do" list at home because I was out "working"). Then something happened in the last game that really made me smile . The coach was whining about some calls (nothing major but a bit annoying) and before I was able to give him the "enough" sign his team was taking the ball out of bounds tableside and his player turned to him and said " Dad, be quiet we are trying to have fun out here and you are really being inmature !" and this was a 15 year old girl . Didn't hear another word from the coach for the rest of the game and I left with a smile and a desire to return to another tourney next weekend !
As for my initial post...I will not rub the fact that I was right asking the Asst coach to zip it (Never had a problem with an Asst before) . When the Head Coach tells me I was wrong again (and he will )I will just reference the aforementioned rules pertaining to bench conduct and be on my merry way.....although it will be tough not to say "I told you so" I will be the bigger person .
Mark- great read on finding out who the head coach is before every game (Sometimes it's tough in AAU). I made it a point to find out every game after the issue I had
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 09:33am
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After reading Rainmakers post should I have run the Head Coach (He picked up a T at half)? Seeing as I T'd up the Asst late in the 2nd half and this carries an indirect to the Head Coach ? Sorry if this is an easy one....
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 09:48am
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Weekend ref.

For a coach to be ejected he needs any of the following combinations of directs and indirects.

1. 1 flagrant T. (You can eject on one technical if you think a single act warrants it. Doesn't happen often.)

2. 2 Direct T's.

3. 1 Direct T and 2 Indirect T's.

4. 3 Indirect T's.

So, to answer your question, I need to know how many T's the assistant had? You said you wound up "running" the A$$'t coach. Do you mean you just T'd him? Or do you mean he got ejected for Two t's. If he got two T's and the HC had one already, then the HC should have been ejected as well.

Was there another coach? If not, they may have had to forfeit a game they were winning handily.

JR said it well, but it bears repeating. No one is allowed to question your calls. By rule, they are specifically prohibited from doing so. Good game management includes cutting them some slack here, but there is nothing that says you have to cut the slack or that you have to cut it to everyone.

If the HC continues to be a brat, simply tell him that since he is demanding you treat his entire coaching staff equally, you will not tolerate any questioning disrespect from his bench; from him or his assistant; per rule 10-4-1.

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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 09:49am
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Quote:
Originally posted by WeekendRef
After reading Rainmakers post should I have run the Head Coach (He picked up a T at half)? Seeing as I T'd up the Asst late in the 2nd half and this carries an indirect to the Head Coach ? Sorry if this is an easy one....
Well, it's best to warn the coach when you give the T to the assistant, so that he has the choice. He might not have done it if you had warned him. However, then when he gets mouthy, he gets a T. This still doesn't run him, though. because one direct plus one indirect isn't quite an eject. If he doesn't get the message after all this, you'll be delighted to run him when the time comes. So will a lot of other folks in the gym.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 10:56am
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Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You can also note that there is absolutely NOTHING ANYWHERE in the rulebook that gives a head coach the right to question a call by an official at any time either.
As long as we "play nicely", questioning a call, discussing the weather and other pleasantries seem to be implied and encouraged.
You're right the rules do not allow, but likewise they do not disallow (as written in some diamond games) questions on judgement.

Let us not forget the item below, which, as you know, is our latest procedure to make ourselves available to such questions.
mick

(NOTE: The NFHS Officials Manual is not being edited this year; however, the Basketball Rules Committee made the following change, which will be reflected in the 2005-07 edition.)
The foul calling official in a three-person crew will go tableside after calling the foul to enhance communication with coaches and the scorer’s table.

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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 11:07am
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Originally posted by rainmaker
Well, it's best to warn the coach when you give the T to the assistant, so that he has the choice. He might not have done it if you had warned him. However, then when he gets mouthy, he gets a T. This still doesn't run him, though. because one direct plus one indirect isn't quite an eject. If he doesn't get the message after all this, you'll be delighted to run him when the time comes. So will a lot of other folks in the gym.
Jewel,
I am confused by your statement.
If a head coach does not know that I just T'd his assistant, then what, I wonder, is the coach doing? ...Where has he gone? How could he not know?

I wonder, if for some reason he left the gym and I T'd his assistant, did I actually T the replacement head coach, ... or the assistant? If I T'd the replacement and the head coach returns, do I note the indirect on the returnee?

How does that work?
mick
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 12:01pm
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mick
I think that she is suggesting a bit of game management here. You would rather avoid the double ejection scenario, so it doesn't hurt to point out that the assistant's T is an indirect on head coach, and that a T to either coach will lead to head coach's ejection. If a little preventive officiating avoids the next T, it's a good thing.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 12:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You can also note that there is absolutely NOTHING ANYWHERE in the rulebook that gives a head coach the right to question a call by an official at any time either.
As long as we "play nicely", questioning a call, discussing the weather and other pleasantries seem to be implied and encouraged.
You're right the rules do not allow, but likewise they do not disallow (as written in some diamond games) questions on judgement.

Actually, Mick, rule 10-5 tells you exactly what the coach's duties are supposed to consist of while the game is being played. Coaches are not supposed to be doing anything except actually coach,outside of those listed duties that are found in that rule. Nowhere can anything be found in the rules that implies or encourages a coach to question an official's call. It's true that it may be almost a standardized practise, but there is no actual rules basis to allow rules questions from any other participant than a team captain. Of course, having said that, I don't think that I know of even one official that strictly follows these rules. Common sense and local practise usually prevail.

From the 2001/2002 Points of Emphasis on Bench Decorum:
-"With rules permission to increase the size of the optional coaching box, the committee again stresses the importance of the coach to properly conduct him/herself. Coaches must stay within the optional coaching box and are ONLY permitted to give instructions to players and substitutes. Coaches using the optional coaching box do not have implied permission to roam the sidelines, attempt to influence the decision of an official, or conduct themselves in an unsporting manner."
-"Consistent with rules 10-4-1g and 10-5-2, bench personnel, including assistant coaches....,must remain seated unless spontaneously responding to an outstanding play".
-"Assistant coaches are not authorized to go to the scorer's table at any time. A team manager or statistician may obtain information from the scorer's table when the clock is stopped and the ball is dead. The head coach is is permitted to go to the scorer's table to request a 60-second time-out to confer with personnel regarding a correctible error, ot to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake/error or an alternating possession mistake.

The rules were written so that the coaches will coach and the referees will referee.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on May 10th, 2004 at 01:11 PM]
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 12:11pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
mick
I think that she is suggesting a bit of game management here. You would rather avoid the double ejection scenario, so it doesn't hurt to point out that the assistant's T is an indirect on head coach, and that a T to either coach will lead to head coach's ejection. If a little preventive officiating avoids the next T, it's a good thing.
Okay, Hawks Coach.
I had trouble understanding the words.
Yeah, for sure if I whack someone on the bench, I'll advise Coach that he lost some privileges.
The last time I did that [a player with a fifth foul walking off the floor said, "That's(bovine manure)!"],
I even apologized to the quiet Coach before I reminded him of his loss of the coaching box. ("I'm sorry Coach, but....)
mick
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