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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 09, 2004, 10:45pm
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Saw a T in AAU Regional qualifier. R1 called a shooting foul, A1 was at line preparing to shoot. Then R1 T'd B coach (I think - couldn't really tell from where I was - and NO, it wasn't me!). No player was ejected, nor was the coach, so I assume it isn't a flagrant T.

We played NCAA women's rules, and Ts were mentioned as being POI unless flagrant. What I saw was lane was cleared, A1 shot two, then they went to coach A to ask who T shooter was, and A2 (their best shooter) shot two, followed by A inbounding at centerline.

Sounds OK for NF, but NCAA should be A2 shoots T FTs with lane cleared, then A1 shoots the FTs for the shooting foul, if I am reading things right. Is that the correct understanding?
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Old Sun May 09, 2004, 11:04pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Sounds OK for NF, but NCAA should be A2 shoots T FTs with lane cleared, then A1 shoots the FTs for the shooting foul, if I am reading things right. Is that the correct understanding?
I'd do it your way, Hawks Coach.
But how many Women's officials actually work AAU ball?
Those officials may get it right next time out.
mick
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Old Sun May 09, 2004, 11:13pm
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Coach didn't say anything, but I don't think that most coaches had any clue what Point of Interruption meant. Not sure about the refs, so I am not sure if they will get it right next time. Maybe if they think about it later. I would have caught them post - game, but the game was a blowout and I switched which court I was watching - didn't catch the end of the game.
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Old Sun May 09, 2004, 11:21pm
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Yep, shoulda done it your way, Coach.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 12:39am
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This is interesting because I'll be working a tourney in June and July that uses "NCAA rules". At least, they have in the past. What that has meant mostly is the lane is different, there's a shot clock, and the back court and 5 second counts are different from high school. And that coaches argue about block/charge calls when the defender is directly under the hoop. Now that I think about it, there are a number of other differences, aren't there? Maybe I'll suggest this year that we use HS rules with a few modifications.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 12:52am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Saw a T in AAU Regional qualifier. R1 called a shooting foul, A1 was at line preparing to shoot. Then R1 T'd B coach...
I'm thinking that in order to really get it right, R1 should have withheld the whistle for the T until A1 shot the first free throw, since she was already preparing to shoot. Now call the T, clear the lane and shoot the 2 T free throws, then put A1 back on the line for her final shot with the players along the lane.

It could be an issue if the coach makes such a disturbance that this disconcerts the free thrower and she misses that first attempt.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 07:22am
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A1 was at the line, but did not have the ball - sorry if that wasn't clear. I was just going on what I observed (A1 was obviously going to be the shooter off the original foul) to figure out the order in which the FTs were administered.

Juulie - this is the first time I have seen all the NCAA women's rules applied, and the host team sent out a rule sheet explaining the major differences. They specified team control foul and technical foul rules, along with the shot clock, no 10 sec b/c, the 5 sec closely guarded, and the obvious FT lane rules. First time I have seen it all laid out on paper in that level of detail for an AAU tourney.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 08:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Saw a T in AAU Regional qualifier. R1 called a shooting foul, A1 was at line preparing to shoot. Then R1 T'd B coach...
I'm thinking that in order to really get it right, R1 should have withheld the whistle for the T until A1 shot the first free throw, since she was already preparing to shoot. Now call the T, clear the lane and shoot the 2 T free throws, then put A1 back on the line for her final shot with the players along the lane.

It could be an issue if the coach makes such a disturbance that this disconcerts the free thrower and she misses that first attempt.

I can see your point, but it really is a judgement call. There are two possibilities that I can see:

1) If A1 was still bouncing the ball: Kill the ball immediately.

2) If A1 was in the act of shooting withhold the whistle. But remember, if you do not withold the whistle in this play, the ball does not become dead becuase of the technical foul. Continuous motion applies to this play.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 08:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Saw a T in AAU Regional qualifier.

We played NCAA women's rules,

Coach - I’m assuming that you were at one of the gyms in Northern Virginia over the weekend? May I ask which?

I did a set on Saturday morning and to be frank you get what you pay for, which in this case was $27 a game. What you got were a good group of experienced to very experienced NF certified refs calling the games. Some did have a NCAA background but most, like myself, did not. When the assignments were finalized during the week we were told that they would be under NCAA Woman’s rules and that a sheet would be provided to us to study when we got to the gym. It turned out to be a very minimal instruction sheet so I would be surprised that that is the only thing missed. Not that you have any control over this but I feel that the AAU/NCAA setup does an injustice to the girls. Since they are going back to HS ball in the fall the games should be under NF rules. But who am I...

All in all the quality of play and coaching was very good. Fans in general were knowledgeable, except for the repeated help they tried to give with the 3-second calls.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 10:44am
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We were at Westfield HS.

Also, it seem that you are trying to defend the refs - no defense needed. They did an excellent job all weekend in the games I saw. I do expect that there will be issues in changing from NF to NCAA. I would push it if it impacted me ever - but I don't get Ts, nor does my team. So when the other team is T'ed, the worst I can get is POI, best is NF. Works for me

Also, you need to realize that the AAU is for college scouting, so it is played under college rules. We played 18 minute halves with stop clock, which is as close as this age group will get to college play. And I like a lot of the college rules better, especially going on release. 5 second count only when ball is held is a bit strange, as is the no 10 sec in b/c. But my girls play 30 sec shot clock and no 10 sec in HS, so it isn't a big change for them. FTs are the biggest change and they have switched back and forth easily in my experience.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 11:00am
JLK JLK is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Saw a T in AAU Regional qualifier. R1 called a shooting foul, A1 was at line preparing to shoot. Then R1 T'd B coach...
I'm thinking that in order to really get it right, R1 should have withheld the whistle for the T until A1 shot the first free throw, since she was already preparing to shoot. Now call the T, clear the lane and shoot the 2 T free throws, then put A1 back on the line for her final shot with the players along the lane.

It could be an issue if the coach makes such a disturbance that this disconcerts the free thrower and she misses that first attempt.

I can see your point, but it really is a judgement call. There are two possibilities that I can see:

1) If A1 was still bouncing the ball: Kill the ball immediately.

2) If A1 was in the act of shooting withhold the whistle. But remember, if you do not withold the whistle in this play, the ball does not become dead becuase of the technical foul. Continuous motion applies to this play.
Also remember under #2, you no longer have any team control on the try so your POI would resume using the AP.

Had this happen to me at camp last year. I called a T on a coach while the free thow was in the air - clinican told me I should have waited until the free throw was over then give out the T.
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Old Mon May 10, 2004, 11:56am
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Quote:
Originally posted by JLK
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
2) If A1 was in the act of shooting withhold the whistle. But remember, if you do not withold the whistle in this play, the ball does not become dead becuase of the technical foul. Continuous motion applies to this play.
Also remember under #2, you no longer have any team control on the try so your POI would resume using the AP.
That's true unless there is another FT to follow. If A1 is shooting the first of two, or the first or second of three, or the first of a one-and-one which is successful, then the POI will be the remaining FT(s).
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Old Tue May 11, 2004, 05:30am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2) If A1 was in the act of shooting withhold the whistle. But remember, if you do not withold the whistle in this play, the ball does not become dead becuase of the technical foul. Continuous motion applies to this play.
MTD,
Perhaps you and some others can shed some light on this situation for me. The case book plays starting with 6.7 deal with continuous motion. I am particulary curious about 6.7.5 part c.
It appears that a whistle blown for a personal or technical foul during the free throwing motion does not cause the ball to become dead (6.7 Sit C pg. 49), but if the whistle is blown inadvertently during this same time period, the ball becomes dead immediately.

Why is this? It seems inconsistent to me. Shouldn't the sounding of the whistle be treated the same in both instances?
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Old Tue May 11, 2004, 05:37am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Coach didn't say anything, but I don't think that most coaches had any clue what Point of Interruption meant. Not sure about the refs, so I am not sure if they will get it right next time. Maybe if they think about it later. I would have caught them post - game, but the game was a blowout and I switched which court I was watching - didn't catch the end of the game.
The rules were posted at the scoring table and one other place along the sidelines. Because the table was at one end of the court, there was and X at the mid-court line and substitutes reported there. If I remember correctly from my 3 games this weekend, we actually used "modified" women's rules. On a couple of occassions, I caught myself just before blowing the whistle for being in the lane too early -- they can go on the release.
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Old Tue May 11, 2004, 05:42am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
A1 was at the line, but did not have the ball - sorry if that wasn't clear. I was just going on what I observed (A1 was obviously going to be the shooter off the original foul) to figure out the order in which the FTs were administered.

Juulie - this is the first time I have seen all the NCAA women's rules applied, and the host team sent out a rule sheet explaining the major differences. They specified team control foul and technical foul rules, along with the shot clock, no 10 sec b/c, the 5 sec closely guarded, and the obvious FT lane rules. First time I have seen it all laid out on paper in that level of detail for an AAU tourney.
Sorry for the double posting against your comments -- should have read the entire thread before answering.

The rules we had at Westfield did not mention a shot clock (and we did not have one), but did talk about the 5 sec closely guarded count. We used a regular 10 sec backcourt count and 5 sec closely guarded in the backcourt if they were holding the ball. Wonder if there were different rules at different locations?
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