Clock work

[Hawks Coach]

Went to nations largest holiday tournament this last week. Interesting, and I believe excellent, refereeing at end of girls' championship. 2.2 seconds left, Team A up 1 and at line for 1-1. Team B lets ref know they want immediate timeout on a miss. A misses front-end, B rebounds and gets immediate TO. 1.4 seconds now show. B is screaming for more time, ref lets stand - reaction time, right? Then ball is inbounded, player dribbles around defender, whistle blows, shot is released, horn sounds. Ref signals no shot, he had clock, game over. (shot missed anyway, but B is now really happy feeling that they weren't given legit chance). I originally thought this too was great reffing, as the ref should be keeping clock in his head at end of game. But I have never seen a game end like this, it all happened very fast and I was left wondering if a ref should be trying to count 1.4 seconds. Thoughts.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Went to nations largest holiday tournament this last week. Interesting, and I believe excellent, refereeing at end of girls' championship. 2.2 seconds left, Team A up 1 and at line for 1-1. Team B lets ref know they want immediate timeout on a miss. A misses front-end, B rebounds and gets immediate TO. 1.4 seconds now show. B is screaming for more time, ref lets stand - reaction time, right? Then ball is inbounded, player dribbles around defender, whistle blows, shot is released, horn sounds. Ref signals no shot, he had clock, game over. (shot missed anyway, but B is now really happy feeling that they weren't given legit chance). I originally thought this too was great reffing, as the ref should be keeping clock in his head at end of game. But I have never seen a game end like this, it all happened very fast and I was left wondering if a ref should be trying to count 1.4 seconds. Thoughts.

First of all, the coach is lucky he got the TO when he did. I thought that you could "warn" the officials that you are going to take a timeout, but you have to call it when you actually want it. Looking at it from another angle, the clock had to start before the TO could be granted. If the clock were running, the whistle blew at 2.2 seconds, and the clock stopped at 1.4, that is within the 1 second lag-time (which I don't agree with but follow).

As to waving off the shot, it depends. No one can count tenths of a second mentally. However if a good 2-3 seconds go by with no horn, it can safely be said that the game is over in this situation.

[mick]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Went to nations largest holiday tournament this last week. Interesting, and I believe excellent, refereeing at end of girls' championship. 2.2 seconds left, Team A up 1 and at line for 1-1. Team B lets ref know they want immediate timeout on a miss. A misses front-end, B rebounds and gets immediate TO. 1.4 seconds now show. B is screaming for more time, ref lets stand - reaction time, right? Then ball is inbounded, player dribbles around defender, whistle blows, shot is released, horn sounds. Ref signals no shot, he had clock, game over. (shot missed anyway, but B is now really happy feeling that they weren't given legit chance). I originally thought this too was great reffing, as the ref should be keeping clock in his head at end of game. But I have never seen a game end like this, it all happened very fast and I was left wondering if a ref should be trying to count 1.4 seconds. Thoughts.

Hawks Coach,
A couple thoughts.
That 0.8 sec. could have been actually used if B had not had positive player control immediately, but if B went up and clamped the ball, the official could have reset to 2.2.

During the TO, the officials may have been able to prepare for a mutual responsibility of the clock, by having the official away from the ball take charge of the shot and clock for that 1.4 seconds, while the on-ball offical concentrated on fouls/violations.
This would obviously be easier with a 3-man crew, than with a 2-man crew.
How many in the crew?
mick

[BktBallRef]

B was fortunate the clock only went from 2.2 seconds to 1.4. The officials were perfectly correct in not putting more time on the clock.

As for the final play, I can't count to 1.4 but I can count to two. Just as you have to allow the timer one second to stop the clock, you have to allow him an opportunity to start it. But it shouldn't take a full second to start. I would start a slow count, one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two. My slow 2 count would be around 3 seconds. If the horn hasn't sounded, I would blow the whistle too.

The referee has autority to correct any obvious timing errors. This is a broad power which is outlined in the rulebook or casebook. I think this qualifies. If the referee didn't feel that the clock was started properly, would the proper way to handle it be to reset the clock and allow B to inbound the ball again? Is that fair to A? Does anybody remember 1972?

BTW Coach, how'd you do?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mick
Hawks Coach,
A couple thoughts.
That 0.8 sec. could have been actually used if B had not had positive player control immediately, but if B went up and clamped the ball, the official could have reset to 2.2.

I have to disagree with you, mick. In NF play, the timer is allowed up to one second lag time. We have to allow him an opportunity to start and stop the clock. 5.10.1b Comment

Also, where does it say that a team can ask for a timeout before they actually have the ball unless it's dead? They may tell you that they're going to request a timeout if they get the ball. That might save them a split second because you're waiting for the request but they still have to make that request when they gain possession. 5-8-3a,b

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
If the clock were running, the whistle blew at 2.2 seconds, and the clock stopped at 1.4, that is within the 1 second lag-time (which I don't agree with but follow).

Why don't you agree with it?

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I have to disagree with you, mick. In NF play, the timer is allowed up to one second lag time. We have to allow him an opportunity to start and stop the clock. 5.10.1b Comment

Also, where does it say that a team can ask for a timeout before they actually have the ball unless it's dead? They may tell you that they're going to request a timeout if they get the ball. That might save them a split second because you're waiting for the request but they still have to make that request when they gain possession. 5-8-3a,b

Tony,
I understand your points, based on the information available in the case book and rule book.
But, I don't see where the clock must start before a timeout is granted. Does the book say that somewhere?

We had a dead ball request for a time out before the team had control and an immediate TO called when that team got control. With immediate being as fast as it is, and with no rule that a team cannot request a timeout on the basis of if..., why can't we call it with no time used?

Take, for example, a coach preliminarily requesting a TO if the Free throw shooter makes it. We grant it on the make. The clock did not start. We don't wait for him to ask again.
So, why would we have to wait for a second request in the rebounding scenario.
mick

[BktBallRef]

I understand your points, based on the information available in the case book and rule book.
But, I don't see where the clock must start before a timeout is granted. Does the book say that somewhere?

It doesn't say that the clock has to start. But it does say that a team has to have possession before a request can be granted.

We had a dead ball request for a time out before the team had control and an immediate TO called when that team got control. With immediate being as fast as it is, and with no rule that a team cannot request a timeout on the basis of if..., why can't we call it with no time used?

You have to start the clock as B can't gain possession without the clock starting. The clock has to start. 5-9-3 says If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court. Nowhere in the book does it say that the clock will not start if a team has requested a TO prior to gaining possession. Since the clock has to start, you have to allow the timer one second to stop the clock.

Take, for example, a coach preliminarily requesting a TO if the Free throw shooter makes it. We grant it on the make. The clock did not start. We don't wait for him to ask again. So, why would we have to wait for a second request in the rebounding scenario.

If you don't wait for a second request in a live ball situation, that's up to you. But you still have to wait until B has gained possession before the TO can be granted. And you can't gain possession by rebounding a missed FT without the clock starting. The rule that I cited above says the clock starts as soon as the ball is touched. A touch always precedes possession.

The clock must start and stop.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Why don't you agree with it?

I personally think that we need to be as accurate as possible with the clock. I don't think it is fair/accurate if the clock should be stopped, we know when it should be stopped, but it isn't.

Take an example: very close game in final seconds. B leads by one point, and A has the ball, holding for a last second shot. B tips the ball OOB at 2 seconds, but the switch malfunctions and the horn sounds. In this scenario, even though everyone saw the clock at 2 (all three officials, both timers (yeah, right!), both scorers, even the coaches and fans agree) it can only be reset to 1 second. I don't think that a second should be lost because of timer/official/equipment error.

[Alaska Ref]

Rule 5 Section 8 Art 3
Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time out, such request being granted only when:
A)The ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team.
B)The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available.

We grant a sub for the shooter of a free throw (if the basket is made) with out the clock starting. If a player tells me they want a time out immediately after the free throw, i tell them only if it go's otherwise your team will have to gain control of the ball.

Good Luck

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

You have to start the clock as B can't gain possession without the clock starting. The clock has to start. 5-9-3 says If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court. Nowhere in the book does it say that the clock will not start if a team has requested a TO prior to gaining possession. Since the clock has to start, you have to allow the timer one second to stop the clock.

The clock must start and stop.

Tony,
Thanks. Your arguments are sound, as usual.
This still does not feel real comfortable.
I will have to chew a little more, before I can swallow.
Thanks again.
mick

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter


I personally think that we need to be as accurate as possible with the clock. I don't think it is fair/accurate if the clock should be stopped, we know when it should be stopped, but it isn't.

Take an example: very close game in final seconds. B leads by one point, and A has the ball, holding for a last second shot. B tips the ball OOB at 2 seconds, but the switch malfunctions and the horn sounds. In this scenario, even though everyone saw the clock at 2 (all three officials, both timers (yeah, right!), both scorers, even the coaches and fans agree) it can only be reset to 1 second. I don't think that a second should be lost because of timer/official/equipment error.

Two things:

1- Everyone does not take as much pride and does not run the clock as well as you do. But even on your very best night, you're not going to be on the money every single time. You can't possibly stop the clock on the exact tenth that the official blows the whistle. Even if you could, not all schools have a clock that shows tenths. That's the other reason the lag time is 1 second. In the absence of precision timing, there has to be an allowance for reaction time.

2- In your example, the official could reset the clock to 2 seconds since it was a timing error.

Here's a similiar case book play.
5.10.1B. Play: A1 travels. Immediately after the official sounds the whistle and signals the clock to stop, he/she glances at the clock and notices there are three seconds remaining in the quarter. However, the timer does not stop the clock and time expires. Ruling: The referee will direct that three seconds be put back on the clock since he/she had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 1st, 2001 at 06:32 PM]

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
[B]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter




2- In your example, the official could reset the clock to 2 seconds since it was a timing error.

Here's a similiar case book play.
5.10.1B. Play: A1 travels. Immediately after the official sounds the whistle and signals the clock to stop, he/she glances at the clock and notices there are three seconds remaining in the quarter. However, the timer does not stop the clock and time expires. Ruling: The referee will direct that three seconds be put back on the clock since he/she had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 1st, 2001 at 06:32 PM]

Gees,
I chop and blew
with 2.2;
but the clock has to fix
it at 1.6

T'ain't fair.

mick

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

2- In your example, the official could reset the clock to 2 seconds since it was a timing error.

Here's a similiar case book play.
5.10.1B. Play: A1 travels. Immediately after the official sounds the whistle and signals the clock to stop, he/she glances at the clock and notices there are three seconds remaining in the quarter. However, the timer does not stop the clock and time expires. Ruling: The referee will direct that three seconds be put back on the clock since he/she had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 1st, 2001 at 06:32 PM]

Earlier in the season, I questioned the difference between this play and the next. Here, the "immediately after" is considered the lag time. In another play, the official notices 5 seconds as the whistle blows, and it must be reset to 4 seconds. (5.10.1D) Now, I don't think there should be any difference between immediately after and while, but I'm not on the rules committee.

BTW, anyone know why lag time is not in the rules, only in the case book?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by mick
Gees,
I chop and blew
with 2.2;
but the clock has to fix
it at 1.6

T'ain't fair.

mick

Somewhat reminiscent of the NBA rule which mandates 3/10ths of a second to run off the clock in a tap then OOB situation.