Simple "T" or Flagrant?

[BayStateRef]

Semifinals of high school rec basketball. 11th/12th graders. One kid is chirping from the first tap about the calls or non-calls. Middle of second quarter he tells the ref (first-year certified official) after a non-call, "You s-u-*-k." (Rhymes with luck.)

Ref hands the kid a T and calls it flagrant. I am the assignor. Ref calls me after the game and asks for advice. I gave him my thoughts. Now I would like to hear yours.

[som44]

i don't think i would have given him a flagrant--more likely just a T--maybe that would have calmed him down and allowed him to stay in game--of course if he kept it up I would not hesitate to t him again

[Jurassic Referee]

Flagrant foul all he way, imo. Let a high school kid talk to you like that? Nope! Btw, if he was chirping from the get-go, then the middle of the 2nd quarter is way too late to crack down on him. Shoulda taken' care of bidness earlier.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 12th, 2004 at 07:43 AM]

[zebraman]

I agree with Jurassic that it should have been dealt with earlier. However, I wouldn't call it flagrant. These are high school kids... with the emotions and poor decision making skills that go along with being kids. A simple "T" ought to teach him a lesson.

Z

[Mark Padgett]

In my rec league, this is a flagrant technical plus a minimum one game suspension. Also - the player must submit a written apology to the official and to the Board.

We don't mess around, boy.

[icallfouls]

At that level, I would have just tossed the kid. Call it a cumulative T or whatever. At the rec-league level, I am not putting up with that kind of non-sense for any length of time. It is agreed that the issue needed to be addressed earlier and the officials on the game need to be more proactive in their preventative officiating.

I definitely would've talked to the player(s) about wanting to be a ref or be a player for the game. I also let the coach know and hope this prevents the situation from getting worse. Now if/when the coach wants an explanation, I tell him that we gave the kid the benefit of the doubt earlier in the game and that was his last chance.

my .02

[N_Stripes]

Originally posted by BayStateRef
Semifinals of high school rec basketball. 11th/12th graders. One kid is chirping from the first tap about the calls or non-calls. Middle of second quarter he tells the ref (first-year certified official) after a non-call, "You s-u-*-k." (Rhymes with luck.)

Ref hands the kid a T and calls it flagrant. I am the assignor. Ref calls me after the game and asks for advice. I gave him my thoughts. Now I would like to hear yours.

Gets a regular T, then one of my eyes for the remainder of the game.

[Redneck Ref]

I had a game (freshman boys, late fill-in, close to school) where one kid is chirping from the first tap about the calls, non-calls, flapping his arms, stomping his feet, you get the picture. Tried talking to him but finally just after the start of the 2nd period my partner calls a foul on him and he stomps around and I "T" him up for unsportmanship. I go over and talk to the coach and the coach pulls him out for the remainder of the half. At half time my partner and I are walking towards the locker room when this kids Dad comes up to us and asks what he kid said to get the "T" because he was going to punish him, that he did put up with that kind of stuff. I told him that he didn't say anything but he was acting out of control and tyring to show us up. The dad replies...that's why you "T'd" him up, thats part of the game. Guess what dad wait a couple of years and when he's playing varsity (if he does) he had better change his attitude because he won't be playing much. Not to say maybe dad should change his attitude towards the game.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
In my rec league, this is a flagrant technical plus a minimum one game suspension. Also - the player must submit a written apology to the official and to the Board.

We don't mess around, boy.

I would call this a flagrant T in ANY game I refereed. It would be an ejection in baseball and football as well.

If the assigning body didn't like that, it would be my last game for that assigning body.

--Rich

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Red Neck Ref
The dad replies...that's why you "T'd" him up, thats part of the game.

Yea, guess where that poor player gets it from?! Sheez, the parents are the worst part of the whole thing.

[Back In The Saddle]

What I've been doing with these malcontents this year:

* After about the third gripe, I'll say to him, "42 (or whatever his number is), I've heard enough." Combine that with "the look" you give your kids when you really mean what you are saying.

So far, that's shut them down. But the next gripe would earn them a T (simple T, not flagrant). I'm not sure I'd toss a player for telling me I suck. Maybe I need to re-evaluate that

Definitely don't let it go on very long at all.

[dhodges007]

Just a regular T from me.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
What I've been doing with these malcontents this year:

* After about the third gripe, I'll say to him, "42 (or whatever his number is), I've heard enough." Combine that with "the look" you give your kids when you really mean what you are saying.

So far, that's shut them down. But the next gripe would earn them a T (simple T, not flagrant). I'm not sure I'd toss a player for telling me I suck. Maybe I need to re-evaluate that

Definitely don't let it go on very long at all.

There can also be the step of talking to the coach about the problem, or talking to the captain. I haven't used it much in the past, but had an evaluator recommend it to me, and I like the feel of it -- if it's done properly.

If he tells me I suck, he's toast. Pure and simple. And just for the record, I've only called one flagrant foul in my career of over two thousand games. 8th grade boys, the post players are going at it pretty hot and heavy, but we've called each kid at least once. I'm gearing up for the big double foul. A scores, B inbounds, I'm new trail, and here are these two post players running up the floor near the back of the pack about 10 or so feet apart. B1 suddenly slides sideways toward A1, puts both hands on A1's back and just pushes him over. Absolutely no provocation of any kind, except the action in the post. Sheez... So I'm not a hothead, okay, but telling me I suck...

[SMEngmann]

It depends on the context of the game as to whether "you suck" warrents a flagrant T. In my opinion, this would normally be just a regular T, especially if it came out of the blue, but if I'd given a warning or told the kid to knock it off before, I might elevate it to a flagrant T because the kid demonstrated that he can't control himself. I had an 8th grade rec game a couple weeks ago where the coach, out of the blue, yells out that I'm the worst referee in the league (which was funny because I was working that game with a green rookie partner who was still mastering stopping the clock on fouls and violations). I thought about the flagrant T, but I went with the simple T and a very low level of tolerence for the rest of the game. That approach worked for me as the next time I saw him, he apologized for his conduct and I informed him how close he was to being tossed, and he appreciated that I kept him in the game. There is gonna be a certain amount of frustration, cussing me out will get you tossed, but I don't think "You suck" alone in the heat of the game meets the bar.

[just another ref]

If any age kid in a rec league says anything negative directly to the official, he's gone. My personal opinion is that it would not have to be as crude as the example given here. You stink. You're terrible. You're awful. and my personal pet peeve, You're cheating. and the bottom line is: You're gone.