How involved should you become

[Rodego]

Pressing, up by 40 points & starters are still in. If they so much as breath on the other team it's a foul. After a few of those, the coach usually calls off the dogs.

I believe it was a great official on this board that said a foul in the first min is a foul in the last min no matter what the score or situtaion. As coaches all we want is the game to be called the same the whole game. I'm concerned that things an official would not normally call would be called or that calls would be purposely made on just one team because of the score. Please explain to me in the interest of fairness and your job to up hold the law of basketball where this fits in. Also thanks to everyone that has posted that has given me new ways to look at this.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Rodego
Pressing, up by 40 points & starters are still in. If they so much as breath on the other team it's a foul. After a few of those, the coach usually calls off the dogs.

I understand where you are coming from, but please let me know where you think the cut-off point is, score and time. At what point is the game out of reach in your mind? At what point is it wrong to keep pressing, to keep starters in? I would seriously like to know what you think, because I know what we have done in specific "out of reach" situations.

[BigJoe]

Had a game a couple of months ago. Girls varsity. Home team is up by about 25 and pulls its starters and main reserves. Visiting team puts on a press on the B squadders and scores 12 unanswered points. Home puts starters back in and extend the lead back to 20 in no time. This is kind of the reverse of this situation, where the home coach tried to "call off the dogs" if you will and the visitor was still waving the steak.
I abhor coaches who keep pressing when they are obviously going to win the game handily. What can they possibly be learning when the opposition can't even get the ball across half court? I don't care what anyone says here. You know darn well you call the game differently when one team is up by 30 or 40 points. You may not be consiously doing it but we all do it. I remember telling a coach who was up by 40 points in the first half, "I can't tell you how to coach, but I can tell you how I will officiate if you keep pressing this team." This was a Junior High tournament and the score was something like 46-6. In varsity games, I don't think I would say anything to a coach.

[mick]

Originally posted by BigJoe
You may not be consiously doing it but we all do it.

Including all others in your rationalization process is a mistake.
mick

[jeffpea]

I've read with interest the comments from lots of contributors the last few days.........While each person has offered an opinion as to their views, it seems that most who disagree with me have not fully understood my initial comments; so let me clarify a little bit.

Basketball, much like life, is NOT "black and white"! There are far more "gray" areas when it comes to officiating a game regardless of level of play. Officials w/ good judgement and common sense know that you cannot administer the same rules in the same manner from game to game or from half to half (depending on the game situation). To call a 3 sec. violation on a team losing by 25pts. in the last :30 of a game is completely idiotic. To call every foul (whether an advantage gained or not) in a "blow-out" game does not help either team, does not allow the game to flow along at its' normal course/pace, and does not harm the "integrity of the game".

What I am advocating is to shade the calls in favor of the team (which is losing by a significant amount) in situations where the call COULD GO EITHER WAY. I would not "make up" calls that favor the losing team that do not exist. I won't allow either team to beat the hell out of each other for the remaining minutes. I'm not helping the losing team win the game - they couldn't possibly come back based on time/score.

There are two problems with occur with my viewpoint - officials who don't know how to apply this theory (they pass on obvious/"must get" fouls on losing team and severely punish the winning team) and coaches who think that every "foul is a foul" and that every violation MUST be called. These are people who live in the "fantasy world" of basketball and don't know the difference from reality.

This mindset happens all the time from officials at the end of blow-out games at the HS, college, or Pro. level. You have to watch closely to even notice that it's occuring. Usually only the officials on the floor know what is happening. That is why coaches, fans, and players have a hard time believing that "good" officials think or act this way.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jeffpea


What I am advocating is to shade the calls in favor of the team (which is losing by a significant amount) in situations where the call COULD GO EITHER WAY.

That is why coaches, fans, and players have a hard time believing that "good" officials think or act this way.

I'm an official. I have a real hard time believing that "good" officials think or act this way. Good officials never "shade" calls in favor of anybody.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by jeffpea
What I am advocating is to shade the calls in favor of the team (which is losing by a significant amount) in situations where the call COULD GO EITHER WAY. I would not "make up" calls that favor the losing team that do not exist.

As Mick has pointed out, there aren't that many calls that "could go either way," meaning close calls where you don't have a good enough view of what happened but you have to call something. In extreme mis-matches, where one team is not really contesting things equally with another, these calls are usually fewer and farther between - it's the fast paced, intensely contested games that result in these close, hard-to-see calls. There are a lot of calls that are close, but you can see what happened if you are in position to make the call. This would include the strip of the ball that then bounces of the knee of the offensive player and OOB, the block/charge, etc.

If you consider these just to be close calls where you can choose to call it in favor of the losing team, many of us disagree with that approach. This is not what "good officials" do in my book. If you are talking about a reobund that is contested and you honestly don't see who touched it ;ast (as oposed to you thinking that the crowd/coaches cant see who touched it last), go ahead and give it to the trailer. But taking close calls and turning them for the losing team is not your place.

[jeffpea]

Jurassic -- I am a former D1 assistant bball coach and can tell you from first-hand experience that officials make calls in the "gray" areas of the game all the time. "That was a bad offensive move; I won't bail him out" OR "not enough contact now" is what I heard often in games that were all but decided by the score/time.

This year I was hired into a college league and can give you an example from this past Saturday. Although it was a close game there were several players (from both teams)on the floor that had 4 fouls. My two partners made sure that the entire crew knew who had four fouls. We weren't going to stick a player w/ a 5th foul that was "weak". I had a situation where two players from Team B (who both had 4 fouls) fouled A5 in the act of shooting. I blew the whistle and got to choose which player to report.......I choose the player who I deemed to be the "weaker" player (leaving the better player on the floor). Although slightly a different situation than we've been discussing earlier, is that "shading"? Did I hurt the integrity of the game? Both of my partners said they would do the same thing. I know that if I were a player or coach on Team B, that's how I would want an official to handle it (Team A would feel the same way if it happened to them).

In the interest of full disclosure, Team A lost the lead and the game during the last 2 minutes. I certainly didn't affect the missed 3pt. shot and 2 missed rebound attempts by Team A to tie the game.............

[mick]

Originally posted by jeffpea
....I had a situation where two players from Team B (who both had 4 fouls) fouled A5 in the act of shooting. I blew the whistle and got to choose which player to report.......I choose the player who I deemed to be the "weaker" player (leaving the better player on the floor).
... Team A lost the lead and the game during the last 2 minutes. I certainly didn't affect the missed 3pt. shot and 2 missed rebound attempts by Team A to tie the game.............

If you don't call the first foul you put A at a disadvantage. You affected the game.
I agree you did not miss any shots.
You and your partners have that rationalized to your satifaction. Great defense mechanism... rationalization!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jeffpea
1)Jurassic -- I am a former D1 assistant bball coach and can tell you from first-hand experience that officials make calls in the "gray" areas of the game all the time. "That was a bad offensive move; I won't bail him out" OR "not enough contact now" is what I heard often in games that were all but decided by the score/time.

2) Although it was a close game there were several players (from both teams)on the floor that had 4 fouls. My two partners made sure that the entire crew knew who had four fouls. We weren't going to stick a player w/ a 5th foul that was "weak". I had a situation where two players from Team B (who both had 4 fouls) fouled A5 in the act of shooting. I blew the whistle and got to choose which player to report.......I choose the player who I deemed to be the "weaker" player (leaving the better player on the floor). Although slightly a different situation than we've been discussing earlier, is that "shading"? Did I hurt the integrity of the game? Both of my partners said they would do the same thing. I know that if I were a player or coach on Team B, that's how I would want an official to handle it (Team A would feel the same way if it happened to them).

In the interest of full disclosure, Team A lost the lead and the game during the last 2 minutes. I certainly didn't affect the missed 3pt. shot and 2 missed rebound attempts by Team A to tie the game.............

1)What you are talking about in #1 above has absolutely nothing to do with giving calls to one team over another.

2)Yes,I most certainly do think that your "shading" in this situation hurt the integrity of the game. I'm also sure that everybody on Team B would agree with what you did though. Why wouldn't they? You just bailed them out, and left the stronger player on the floor for them. Now you tell me why you won't "bail" a player out in one instance, but you then advocate "bailing" a player out in a different instance? Btw, aren't there two teams on the floor? Do you really think that Team A is gonna be that pleased with you for deciding to leave the better of Team B's players out on the floor? I'll tell you what I really think, Jeff, even though I know that you don't agree with it. Quit playing God out there, and just call what happens. And please don't try to justify your stance by saying that "good" officials do it your way. You can't prove that statement, and never will be able to. What you are giving is your opinion, which is exactly the same as what I am doing also. My opinion is that, if the Team B player did anything at all to help his team out after you decided that he could stay in the game, then you sure as heck did contribute to Team A losing that game.

[jeffpea]

Mick/Jurassic -- By extension of your logic, you are both going to call a foul or travel in the last 2,3,or 4 seconds of a 40 pt game on the losing team? Please don't be the Police Officer that writes a speeding ticket when you are traveling 1 mph over the Speed Limit!

Judgement is the single greatest asset an official can have. Since all contact is not a foul, you must use Judgement to determine what should and should not be called. Whether you want to admit it or not, the same skills that you use to determine what is and what isn't going to be called a travel or foul during a game are the same skills you should use to determine what you are going to call based on time/score.

[Hawks Coach]

jeffpea
Saying you will let the last seconds run off the clock in a blowout rather than call a vioaltion is a lot different than saying you will make all your calls differently during the second half of a blowout. Please don't mis apples and oranges here.

[mick]

Originally posted by jeffpea
Mick/Jurassic -- By extension of your logic, you are both going to call a foul or travel in the last 2,3,or 4 seconds of a 40 pt game on the losing team? Please don't be the Police Officer that writes a speeding ticket when you are traveling 1 mph over the Speed Limit!

Judgement is the single greatest asset an official can have. Since all contact is not a foul, you must use Judgement to determine what should and should not be called. Whether you want to admit it or not, the same skills that you use to determine what is and what isn't going to be called a travel or foul during a game are the same skills you should use to determine what you are going to call based on time/score.

By my logic...?
That ain't my grave yer diggin'.
mick

---

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jeffpea
1) Mick/Jurassic -- By extension of your logic, you are both going to call a foul or travel in the last 2,3,or 4 seconds of a 40 pt game on the losing team? Please don't be the Police Officer that writes a speeding ticket when you are traveling 1 mph over the Speed Limit!

2)Judgement is the single greatest asset an official can have. Since all contact is not a foul, you must use Judgement to determine what should and should not be called. Whether you want to admit it or not, the same skills that you use to determine what is and what isn't going to be called a travel or foul during a game are the same skills you should use to determine what you are going to call based on time/score.

1)Jeff, please don't tell me what my logic is. I've already told you what my logic is. What you're alluding to above has got squat to do with what we've been discussing. You haven't been talking at all about judgement being applied on a call. You've been talking about pre-judging that call instead. The difference is immense. My logic is that I'm gonna try and make every damn call on it's own merits! I'm not gonna pre-judge a call! Ever! If you wanna do so, go right ahead. I just want you to know that I disagree completely with your philosophy.

2) As for the second statement, please tell me how you can talk about "judgement" when it doesn't take any "judgement" at all to make every close call against one team only. There is no judgement involved there at all; just favoritism. There certainly is a skill involved to calling a travel or foul correctly. Please enlighten me as to what skill is involved in you determining what call you're gonna make be before it even happens? No matter what, if it's close, the call you make is gonna go against the team ahead. There's not much skill attached to that philosophy, imo.