How involved should you become

[mick]

Originally posted by jeffpea
Good officials know when they can make calls to "give the benefit of the doubt" to the losing team. This is not black and white! You don't make every call in the favor of the losing team until the winning coach "get's the message" or the score becomes respectable. When it's close, you simply give the losing the benefit of doubt.

The rules of basketball may be black and white as printed in the NFHS rulebook, but not all of them are "black and white". Certain aspects have no room for interpretation (3pt vs 2pt shot, ball/foot on the out-of-bounds line, etc.). However, there is quite a bit of room for interpretation of violations and fouls (3sec., traveling, hand-checking, block/charge, etc.). It is the "grey-areas" where you can "kill the loser with kindness" in a 40pt game where the winning team is still pressing.............

RE: Benefit of the doubt -
If a team gets a huge, 40 point lead, the game is often already in the 3rd or 4th quarter. How many close plays will even be available? If we have 3 close plays a game, there may only be one left to even consider. I'd erase that concept from my memory bank.
RE: Killing with kindness -
The loser is dead. You cannot kill them. Perhaps you could kill the winner with kindness, by giving them really stoopid calls in their favor to the point of embarrassing them, but forget killing the dead team. The better team and coach already did that deed.
mick

JeffPea,

Your comments on this board that you give every boarderline call to the losing team is doing a diservice to the game of basketball and to the fine officials on this board that call the game the same from beginning to end. Eventhough I often throw my two cents in on this board, it is not my job to officiate during a game, it is my job to coach my players to the best of my ability. I once had a game where we were up by 30pts at half time. Now I had no press on, my girls had to make five passes, they could not break and at half time the official tells me the same philosophy that you have. End of the game we win but lost four players to injuries in the second half because of this philosophy. Now Im not trying to be confrontational here, but I don't understand how you JeffPea can have this philosophy of bending the rules for whichever team you feel fit, but still expect us as a coaching fraternity to respect you when you work our games. I feel this attitude of helping out the weaker team is not your job, just like it is not my job to offciate. What I feel your doing is a disservice to the fine officials on this board, and all of the players that play the game. Your cheating!

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BBallCoach
JeffPea,

Your comments on this board that you give every boarderline call to the losing team is doing a diservice to the game of basketball and to the fine officials on this board that call the game the same from beginning to end. Eventhough I often throw my two cents in on this board, it is not my job to officiate during a game, it is my job to coach my players to the best of my ability. I once had a game where we were up by 30pts at half time. Now I had no press on, my girls had to make five passes, they could not break and at half time the official tells me the same philosophy that you have. End of the game we win but lost four players to injuries in the second half because of this philosophy. Now Im not trying to be confrontational here, but I don't understand how you JeffPea can have this philosophy of bending the rules for whichever team you feel fit, but still expect us as a coaching fraternity to respect you when you work our games. I feel this attitude of helping out the weaker team is not your job, just like it is not my job to offciate. What I feel your doing is a disservice to the fine officials on this board, and all of the players that play the game. Your cheating!

What total BS,so your players got hurt because the official awarded the other team the ball on a close out of bounds play,or did not call a travel or 3 seconds on them,or passed on a hand check! Right!

[mick]

Originally posted by blindzebra
What total BS,so your players got hurt because the official awarded the other team the ball on a close out of bounds play,or did not call a travel or 3 seconds on them,or passed on a hand check! Right!

hurt: wrong; harm.

If we favor one team, the other team is hurt; and we did it.
mick

My point was that this is not in the fairness of the game. I dont really want to go back to my situation but those officials on that day took it to the extreme in my opinion I could be wrong, but my kids were getting fouled with no calls, but that is not my point it's not about me or my kids its about JeffPea's post. How can you as an official that is there to uphold the fairness and integrity of the game support JeffPea's comments to basically cheat? I would have thought that must officials would be outraged as this behavior hurts their credibility as officials, something I know they all hold very dear to them.

[footlocker]

Bballcoach does bring up a good point. Whenever I am working a blowout game, it becomes about game management. Losing players get frustrated and may foul more. I would say that it is more often the case that the losing team has a higher foul count in the second half of a blow out. These games aren't fun for the coaches, players, fans, or us. I just want to get out of there without any difficult situations and without anybody getting hurt. If I allow a team losing to foul, then they may continue to get rougher.

[Edited by footlocker on Feb 27th, 2004 at 01:05 PM]

[Hawks Coach]

But I am definitely on the side of BBallCoachon this one. I cannot tell you how many games my players have gotten hammered by teams that were losing and refs were passing on calls against a team getting blown out. It does happen, it is ugly, and I have had a couple of people get hurt that way. That is the extreme downside of changing the way you call the game.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
But I am definitely on the side of BBallCoachon this one. I cannot tell you how many games my players have gotten hammered by teams that were losing and refs were passing on calls against a team getting blown out. It does happen, it is ugly, and I have had a couple of people get hurt that way. That is the extreme downside of changing the way you call the game.

No one has said they will pass on obvious fouls,what WAS said was:
1.Call more ticky-tack fouls on a team way up that continued to press.
2.If a violation or block/charge was close it was going in favor of the team getting blown out.

From what I've seen over the years,players on the winning team get fouled hard when they keep pressing and attacking,
because the team behind gets frustrated.That situation gets
defused if the team getting blown out gets a break,here or there,from the officials.

It is about game management,it is not cheating,it is not
altering,it is controlling a game that could get ugly.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by mick

hurt: wrong; harm.

If we favor one team, the other team is hurt; and we did it.
mick

He said,INJURED.Which IS BS.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra
[[/B]

No one has said they will pass on obvious fouls,what WAS said was:
1.Call more ticky-tack fouls on a team way up that continued to press.
2.If a violation or block/charge was close it was going in favor of the team getting blown out.

It is about game management,it is not cheating,it is not
altering,it is controlling a game that could get ugly.
[/B][/QUOTE]Don't agree with you, either. You're the one that's managing the play, not the players. You're also the one controlling the play, not the players.

Have you ever read this one?

"A player or a team should not be be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule".

It's not our job to be judge, jury and executioner just because we don't happen to agree with what a team is legally doing. JMO.

[mick]

Originally posted by blindzebra

He said,INJURED.Which IS BS.

Okay.
Yet, when we start changing the rules then anything is possible on the floor, including bovins waste.
None of the coaches advocate anything but following the rules and maintaining a clean floor.
And that is my fecund opinion.
mick

[Hawks Coach]

blindzebra
You are right, nobody said skip the fouls. However, my experience has been that it is a slippery slope, and giving the benefit of the doubt on violations slides into giving the benefit of the doubt on contact. And then it gets ugly, and people get hurt. The problem is not all refs make this distinction that you are making, despite what is said here.

If you can keep your leniency to missing a couple of violations, I have no problem with that. I am not one who is big on calling every travel when a team is completely overmatched and down by 40 points. Frequently they can't even initiate their offense, so letting a little marginal stuff slide is no big deal to me. If it lets them play a little more and keeps the game flowing a bit better, you be the judge. And if it is a team that could compete but is screwing up, you can usaully see the difference. In those cases, keep calling your game because you could be a momentum swinger by changing.

But the obvious mismatches are obvious - do what you feel comfortable doing as long as you aren't jeopardizing safety.

[Camron Rust]

Not sure who I'm agreeing with and who I'm not agreeing with but here's what I do...

I start every game assuming the teams are of comparable talent and ability. I call contact at some level depending on what I think creates an advantage/disadvantage for one of the players. As the game goes on, I adapt the threshold depending the actual abilities of the players.

When a team is down by 40 in the 4th, I may choose to pass fouls that I would have called earlier. I may also choose to call ones I would have passed on earlier.

For example... Beginning of game, A1 shooting, gets tapped on the wrist/elbow by B1 but not very hard. I call the foul, the basket goes in. Fourth quarter, A up by 40. Same play, no call. It has become apparent that B gained no advantage and A didn't lose the advantage. If the level of contact escalates such that B hits A1 hard, I'll call the foul even if the shot still goes in to maintain control of the game.

Another one...well played game, tied in the 4th quarter, A1 carelessly takes the ball to the corner and gets aggressively trapped by B1 and B2, a little bit of bumping, but A1's is strong and able to play trough it...A1 travels unrelated to a bump...I call the travel...the bump didn't cause it, A1 shouldn't have let themselves get trapped to begin with. Now, in a 40 point game, same play. This time I call the foul since I judge that it was the cause of the travel.

Advantage/Disadvantage is NOT a constant. It varies every game depeding on the teams/players involved. Taking some examples that everyone knows...the contact that Shaq can play through without being disadvantaged is certainly different that what Shawn Bradley can take. It takes a lot more to affect Shaq due to his strength and bulk.

[Adam]

One of the keys to remember here is that some teams may play poorly on a given night, but aren't that bad. I've had plenty of games start off 15-2 only to have the slow starting team lead by half time. I've had teams come back from near 20 pt. deficits in the latter stages to win. I'm very hesitant to claim coaches shouldn't coach their way. I've caught myself a couple of times wondering why a coach was still running his press after leading a the first break by 17-4 (or something like that), only to have one of those teams actually win the game.
Now, when teams are obviously overmatched, I have "missed" some violations that could have been called. Stuff like travels, 3 seconds (may as well have set up a tent), line violations on a throw in (after a hoop, with no pressure), no-pressure illegal dribbles. I will not, however, back off on contact fouls. I've had too many players get frustrated and end up with intentional fouls.

It's harder to focus on these games, but it's just as necessary to get it right.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
blindzebra
You are right, nobody said skip the fouls. However, my experience has been that it is a slippery slope, and giving the benefit of the doubt on violations slides into giving the benefit of the doubt on contact. And then it gets ugly, and people get hurt. The problem is not all refs make this distinction that you are making, despite what is said here.

If you can keep your leniency to missing a couple of violations, I have no problem with that. I am not one who is big on calling every travel when a team is completely overmatched and down by 40 points. Frequently they can't even initiate their offense, so letting a little marginal stuff slide is no big deal to me. If it lets them play a little more and keeps the game flowing a bit better, you be the judge. And if it is a team that could compete but is screwing up, you can usaully see the difference. In those cases, keep calling your game because you could be a momentum swinger by changing.

But the obvious mismatches are obvious - do what you feel comfortable doing as long as you aren't jeopardizing safety.

That is actually my chief concern in this philosophy.I've
seen plenty of over matched teams getting killed and their frustration grows.Over matched players will usually commit
more fouls,that is why I'm more likely to call marginal stuff on the team that is up by a lot.Their play is frustrating them and the last thing that game needs is for it to be 9-1 in fouls against them too.I'd prefer to avoid
it's 7 on 5 out here,so I'll call things tighter on the team with the big lead,especially if they are still pressing.

I'd never stop calling fouls on the team behind,but I'll try not to increase that frustration level that could lead
to hard fouls and players getting hurt.

I always talk to the players,my games will always have plenty of,"Good take,nice pass,that's good hustle," but I'll usually talk more during blow outs,especially with the younger kids.Again if they hear encouragement for playing hard,the right way,the score has less emphasis and things don't get out of hand.

We don't officiate in a vacuum,so every game won't be a close,well played and even match up.We make judgments based on the rules and the level of play.We make judgments based on advantage/disadvantage and flow of the game.We make judgments for game management reasons.

That is a lot of balls we our juggling,their is no perfect
answer to this,but safety should never be ignored.