The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 30, 2004, 08:51pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,653
The following play happened in my boys' H.S. freshmen game this afternoon. It really did. "I kid you not" to quote the late Jack Parr.

Team A had the ball for a throw-in on the endline in its frontcourt with one second left in the first quarter. A1 throw the the inbounds pass to A2 who was standing at the top of the three point arc. The instant that A2 caught the ball the game clock horn sounded with 0 seconds showing on the clock and all of the players stopped. It was obvious that the Timer started the clock too soon. I was the R. I put one second back on the clock and gave Team A the ball for a throw-in on the sideline nearest the spot where A2 caught A1's inbounds pass.

As Yogi would say, "It was deja vu all over the again."
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 03:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
darn it MTD you had me agreeing 100% until you put the ball in at the sideline and put all the time back......I agree put all the time back, but give em the ball in the original location again.....now lets all pair off in threes and discuss this again
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 04:14am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
I don't think that there's any real need to discuss that last thread again. The last thread had completely different circumstances. In that thread, the official chopped the time in when he shouldn't have. There's no lag-time factor in stopping the clock that anyone can argue this time, either .In this sitch, it is a straight timer's mistake with no extenuating circumstances whatsoever, and is covered under Rule 5-10-1. You can't argue that it was an official's mistake instead of a timer's mistake this time. Maybe MTD can come up with a rule that will allow him to move the throw-in up floor while correcting the time in this sitch, but I sure can't think of one. There's nothing in Rule 5-10 that says that he can, that's for sure. By rule, you can put the one second back on the clock because you had definite information that that's when the timer mistakenly started the clock. Now where was the ball when the clock showed the proper time of one second remaining? Sureashell not 40-50 feet up the floor, was it?

I would hazard a guess that the B coach was not too happy with his call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2004 at 03:48 AM]
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 10:03am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 521
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Now where was the ball when the clock showed the proper time of one second remaining? Sureashell not 40-50 feet up the floor, was it?

I would hazard a guess that the B coach was not too happy with his call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2004 at 03:48 AM]
I’m glade to see that Mark made that mistake because now I don’t feel so bad. Week before last, A up by 3 with 9 tenths of a second left on the clock at the end of the game. A1 is spot inbounding on the B’s baseline and B is putting double pressure on A1. A1 takes a few steps back and heaves the ball high down court. The ball hits a volleyball net hanging at mid-court from the ceiling and the buzzer sounds. Went over inbounds situations with the timer before the game.

Put the 0.09 back on the clock and gave B the ball at mid-court. No one caught the mistake as everyone, I guess, was still thinking about the timers action. To make matters worst we had a no touch inbounds throw-in during the first half and handled it correctly.

So thanks Mark, now I know even you interpreters can make mistakes
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 01:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,772
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I don't think that there's any real need to discuss that last thread again. The last thread had completely different circumstances. In that thread, the official chopped the time in when he shouldn't have. There's no lag-time factor in stopping the clock that anyone can argue this time, either .In this sitch, it is a straight timer's mistake with no extenuating circumstances whatsoever, and is covered under Rule 5-10-1. You can't argue that it was an official's mistake instead of a timer's mistake this time. Maybe MTD can come up with a rule that will allow him to move the throw-in up floor while correcting the time in this sitch, but I sure can't think of one. There's nothing in Rule 5-10 that says that he can, that's for sure. By rule, you can put the one second back on the clock because you had definite information that that's when the timer mistakenly started the clock. Now where was the ball when the clock showed the proper time of one second remaining? Sureashell not 40-50 feet up the floor, was it?

I would hazard a guess that the B coach was not too happy with his call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2004 at 03:48 AM]
I was thinking the same thing. Just put it back on the inbounds line as it were before the clock started and continue.

Thanks
David
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 02:56pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,653
cmathews (Jan 31st, 2004 02:21 AM): "darn it MTD you had me agreeing 100% until you put the ball in at the sideline and put all the time back......I agree put all the time back, but give em the ball in the original location again.....now lets all pair off in threes and discuss this again."

MTD, Sr.: cmathews, why would you give Team A the ball for a throw-in on the endline in their frontcourt? Did the Timer’s mistake negate A1 throw-in pass to A2? No it did not. The correct spot for Team A’s next throw-in is nearest the spot where A2 caught A1 throw-in pass.





RecRef (Jan 31st, 2004 09:03 AM): "I’m glade to see that Mark made that mistake because now I don’t feel so bad. Week before last, A up by 3 with 9 tenths of a second left on the clock at the end of the game. A1 is spot inbounding on the B’s baseline and B is putting double pressure on A1. A1 takes a few steps back and heaves the ball high down court. The ball hits a volleyball net hanging at mid-court from the ceiling and the buzzer sounds. Went over inbounds situations with the timer before the game.

Put the 0.09 back on the clock and gave B the ball at mid-court. No one caught the mistake as everyone, I guess, was still thinking about the timers action. To make matters worst we had a no touch inbounds throw-in during the first half and handled it correctly.”

So thanks Mark, now I know even you interpreters can make mistakes."

MTD, Sr.: RecRef, the only mistake that I can see that you made is that you incorrectly gave Team B the ball at the division line for a throw-in instead on the endline in its front court closest to the spot where A1 released his/her throw-in pass. As I stated in my response to cmathews, the Timer’s mistake did not negate A1’s throw-in pass and throw-in violation.





Yes, David B, Coach B was not happy with me putting time on the clock and giving Team A another throw-in, but an official's job is not to make Caoch B happy, but to do the correct thing.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Jan 31st, 2004 at 10:36 PM]
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 03:58pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

MTD, Sr.: Did the Timer’s mistake negate A1 throw-in pass to A2? No it did not. The correct spot for Team A’s next throw-in is nearest the spot where A2 caught A1 throw-in pass.

MTD, Sr.: As I stated in my response to cmathews, the Timer’s mistake did not negate A1’s throw-in pass and throw-in violation.

Do you have a rules citation that will back up your hypothesis above, Mark, that you can move the throw-in up the floor?

Btw, exactly what throw-in pass are you talking about. You stated in your initial post above- "the instant that A2 caught the ball, the game horn sounded...". You didn't say that A2 caught the ball before the horn sounded. Horn = dead ball, Mark. Therefore A2 caught a dead ball. There never was a completed throw-in pass, iow. How can you move the ball up the floor when team A never did have possession up the floor? Also,what's your call if A1 only touched the ball instead of catching it, and the ball was loose? Best of all, please tell me what your call would have been if B1 had caught that long pass when the horn went off instead of A2. Using your logic, would you put 1 second back on the clock, and then give B the ball for a throw-in where B1 caught the ball? I can hardly wait for you to try and answer that last one.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2004 at 03:03 PM]
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 05:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,988
Just one question for MTD, why is it a timers mistake now, when in the last situation, it was an officials mistake??
__________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 06:18pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
Just one question for MTD, why is it a timers mistake now, when in the last situation, it was an officials mistake??
If Mark doesn't mind, I'll answer that one for him. In the late, lamented, lengthy thread, the official did erroneously chop time in on the throw-in before the ball was touched on the throw-in. The timer started the clock on the official's wrong signal, instead of when the ball was legally touched on the throw-in. That doesn't apply in the case above. This one is a straight timer's error, with no extenuating circumstances.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 08:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,988
I apologize then,

I misunderstood the original play. I thought that the official did not chop, but the timer started the clock erroniously.

Sorry for any inconveinece this may have caused..

Edited for spelling.

[Edited by ref18 on Jan 31st, 2004 at 07:11 PM]
__________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 09:49pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,221
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18

I misunderstood the original play. I thought that the official did not chop, but the timer started the clock erroniously.

That's true for this thread. Straight timer's mistake.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 31, 2004, 11:53pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,653
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

MTD, Sr.: Did the Timer’s mistake negate A1 throw-in pass to A2? No it did not. The correct spot for Team A’s next throw-in is nearest the spot where A2 caught A1 throw-in pass.

MTD, Sr.: As I stated in my response to cmathews, the Timer’s mistake did not negate A1’s throw-in pass and throw-in violation.

Do you have a rules citation that will back up your hypothesis above, Mark, that you can move the throw-in up the floor?

Btw, exactly what throw-in pass are you talking about. You stated in your initial post above- "the instant that A2 caught the ball, the game horn sounded...". You didn't say that A2 caught the ball before the horn sounded. Horn = dead ball, Mark. Therefore A2 caught a dead ball. There never was a completed throw-in pass, iow. How can you move the ball up the floor when team A never did have possession up the floor? Also,what's your call if A1 only touched the ball instead of catching it, and the ball was loose? Best of all, please tell me what your call would have been if B1 had caught that long pass when the horn went off instead of A2. Using your logic, would you put 1 second back on the clock, and then give B the ball for a throw-in where B1 caught the ball? I can hardly wait for you to try and answer that last one.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 31st, 2004 at 03:03 PM]


Jurassic Referee: The first mistake in your post above is when you stated that A2 caught a dead ball. One of the fundamentals of basketball is that the horn does not cause the ball to become dead (see NFHS R6-S7; please do not attempt to invoke R6-S7-A6, because this Article does not apply when the game clock is started incorrectly). The game clock was incorrectly started; the fact that the game was started too soon does not negate A1 throw-in. A2 did in fact catch a live ball. And yes, if B1 had caught A1's inbounds pass, I would have put one second on the game clock, and given Team B the ball for a throw-in on the sideline nearest the spot where B1 had caught the throw-in.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 01, 2004, 12:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cheyenne, wyoming
Posts: 1,493
MTD, well I still don't like the feel of moving the ball up the court, there is no rule or case play to support it, I also agree there is no rule or case play that directly prohibits it either. To me if we put the time back to the original we just do the whole thing over. I don't think that you can definitively say that that is wrong either, because there is no specific case or rule to cite one way or the other...I will give you this, you are consistent in your moving the ball up the court LOL....but as we all know half of this game is 90% mental....
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 01, 2004, 12:19am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,653
Quote:
Originally posted by ref18
Just one question for MTD, why is it a timers mistake now, when in the last situation, it was an officials mistake??

In the previous thread that has since been deleted, the (Trail) official that administered the throw-in signaled for the clock to start before the clock should have started. The Timer started the clock when the Trail official signaled time-in. The Trail official's signaling time-in too soon is of no consequence. The rules are quite specific as to when the clock is to start. The Timer's mistake is what is important in the previous thread as well as in the play that I posted in this thread. See NFHS R5-S9-A4.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 01, 2004, 12:27am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 7,653
Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
MTD, well I still don't like the feel of moving the ball up the court, there is no rule or case play to support it, I also agree there is no rule or case play that directly prohibits it either. To me if we put the time back to the original we just do the whole thing over. I don't think that you can definitively say that that is wrong either, because there is no specific case or rule to cite one way or the other...I will give you this, you are consistent in your moving the ball up the court LOL....but as we all know half of this game is 90% mental....

You still have not answered my question: Why would you negate A1's throw-in? Tell me how the clock starting too soon negates Team A's throw-in?
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:17am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1