tournament selection

[oatmealqueen]

Can the same officials work a state final game in your area (or state) an unlimited number of years in a row?
Meaning, if I work a final game in 2000, can I also work again in 2001, 2002, 2003 and so on.
Or is there a rotation process of some type?
Just curious.

[ace]

In Texas you only get 3 finals games before your out. Never again... you can call up to the finals and everything else but can never work a finals game again.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by ace
In Texas you only get 3 finals games before your out. Never again... you can call up to the finals and everything else but can never work a finals game again.

ace?
What if the best of the best have already called 3 finals? Couldn't that "quantity over quality" theory cheat the kids out of the best officials?

[JRutledge]

It was once rumored that in my state that an if an official went to State 3 times, they were done. No matter how many times in a row. But now the IHSA says they have said that you can go only two times in a row and have to take a year off. Then you could go another 2 times and take a year off again. And this could happen for years in theory. But they just announced that, so we will see.

Peace

[zebraman]

What if the best of the best have already called 3 finals? Couldn't that "quantity over quality" theory cheat the kids out of the best officials?

I'm quite confident that most states have plenty of officials that are capable of officiating any level of state championship game.

Z

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by zebraman

I'm quite confident that most states have plenty of officials that are capable of officiating any level of state championship game.

Z

Z
I'm not quite as confident as you.

[WinterWillie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oatmealqueen

In the state I am in the tournament list is established by the vote of the coach's. Once you are on the list, the only way you will be replaced is if you die (quote the assignor/commissioner). As such, you could be assigned the finals for the rest of your life. Very political!

[Rich]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen

Z
I'm not quite as confident as you.

--------------
"Best" officials? How about qualified officials? "Best" is such a subjective term.

You're saying that in the entire state of Michigan there aren't enough 3-whistle crews so different ones work state finals every season? I can't imagine that.

I'm in Wisconsin -- 2 whistles, 4 classes (girls and boys). Means only 16 officials can work state finals every season. In my opinion, you should get one of these in a career. There are certainly enough quality officials in a state to rotate this around so that all that are qualified get a shot at the brass ring.

What incentive is there when an official looks at the list of state officials and sees the same names year after year?

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jan 1st, 2004 at 09:20 PM]

[ref18]

Chosen by the coaches, that can't be good. I know a few of coaches in my area don't know the first thing about officiating. I hope my participation in a major tournament is never determined by their votes.

In my area, the provincial tournament is held in a selected location. Half the officials are from the association in which the tournament is held, the other half come from various associations. If you keep getting sent to the tournament, i don't see why there'd be a limit on the amount of times you work the final.

[rainmaker]

Im not sure of all the details in Oregon, except that each association sends a certain number, and each association chooses who they send. Our association uses a formula that includes voting by the coaches and also by the membership of the association. I know that if you've worked a tournament two years in a row, from our association, you have to sit out a year. But then you are eligible to go back into the rotation. Once selected to work the tourney, a ref gets at least four games, possibly five. I'm not sure what the rules are about the championship game -- whether once you've done it once you're out forever, or not.

But actually this year, the whole tournament is going to be structured differently, so that there will be half as many games. I have no idea what that will do to the reffing situation.

[BktBallRef]

In NC, we have Sectionals in all 4 classes, boys and girls, in which any class 1 or 2 official is classified to work.

Booking supervisors choose 3 crews to work in the Regionals, which are really the quarterfinal and semifinal round of the state tourney. The Regionals consist of the Regional Semifinal round and the Regional Championship round. You work 2 semis or you work 1 semi and 1 a Regional Championship. It can be 2 boys' games, 2 girls' games, or one game for each. One of the 3 crews from each association works the State Finals.

Until about three years ago, you could only go to the Regionals once every 3 years. But that was changed as sending 3 crews every year would force a supervisor to pick the 27th best official in his association every 3 years. That can be difficult in very small associations.

Last year, we worked a 4A and a 3A boys game at the Regionals. The other two crews in our association worked a quarterfinal and a Regional Championship, in the girls tourney. Then we worked the 1A Boys State Championship game. So, not only did we get the Finals, we also only worked Boys. Our Sectional Championship was also a 3A Bys game and was probably the best game of the 4. It was a blast!

Fortunately, I can go back in three years. Unfortunately, it won't happen that soon. It might be 10 years.

But it's a helluva ride and it's worth the wait!

[Rich]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Im not sure of all the details in Oregon, except that each association sends a certain number, and each association chooses who they send. Our association uses a formula that includes voting by the coaches and also by the membership of the association. I know that if you've worked a tournament two years in a row, from our association, you have to sit out a year. But then you are eligible to go back into the rotation. Once selected to work the tourney, a ref gets at least four games, possibly five. I'm not sure what the rules are about the championship game -- whether once you've done it once you're out forever, or not.

But actually this year, the whole tournament is going to be structured differently, so that there will be half as many games. I have no idea what that will do to the reffing situation.

When I was in (state omitted), the association would "choose" their top 16 officials. EVERY NIGHT of the playoffs, they would start with #1 and work down until all the slots were filled. Every year, the same officials would be listed 1-16 for the most part and if you were below 16 you simply wouldn't get a single post-season game. Some officials would work multiple games in each round based on the scheduling.

Who does that serve, exactly, besides the people who somehow find their way at the top of the list? If you were a transfer official, you could be one of the best officials in the world and you wouldn't be able to crack that list for YEARS until people on the list stated retiring.

The Top 16 was heavy with college officials who would work VERY FEW HS games until the playoffs and people who would've done the sport a great favor by retiring 10 years earlier.

Rich

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

"Best" officials? How about qualified officials? "Best" is such a subjective term.

Is not "qualified" subjective as well? Depending on what you consider the qualifications, that can eliminate people and put people on the list.

I would like to add, doing the State Finals in my state does not mean the Championship game. In basketball (and other sports), usually that means the Quarterfinals at least. There is not quarantee that an official will do the Championship game if they are going to "State" as an official. That means that the teams have at least 3 games to play if they are to win in all or play for 3rd place. An official I think is only guaranteed one game (to my the best of my knowledge). The Championship weekend is held for each class and gender at one time. So if someone does the Class AA State Finals, they will work on Friday. And if they do well, they can get the Semi-Finals and Championship game (or even 3rd place game) on Saturday. So when you are considered a State Final official, that means you go to Peoria for the Boy's and Bloomington for the Girls. But how many games you do, is up to the folks that make those decisions. And doing one of those games is considered a trip. So it is very possible that you are a State Final official and never do the Final game.

Peace

[Rich]

I knew I was heading down a slippery slope with that, Jeff.

I guess what I should've said was "same." The officials shouldn't be the "same."

It takes work identifying a different set of officials every season. It's EASIER to use the same officials year in and year out. Some places take the easy way out.

Regardless of whether those officials in IL work a final, they get the finals patch to keep and wear (if they choose), right? Well, everyone who stays with officiating and does a good job should get the shot at working that in a career. Every time someone goes back for a (more than one) time, it reduces the number of people getting that opportunity by one.

I'd do it once and be more than happy to let someone else get the shot moving forward, if that was the policy.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


Regardless of whether those officials in IL work a final, they get the finals patch to keep and wear (if they choose), right?

Yes that is true. They are a State Final officials, but I think football is the only sport that you will do the Championship game if you go to "State." All it really means is that you were assigned the last stage of the playoffs. Who does the actual games and what games is another story.

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I'd do it once and be more than happy to let someone else get the shot moving forward, if that was the policy.

Well in Illinois and I am sure in other states, you can turn down the opportunity to work it if you like. I personally think the guys that have earned it deserve to go and should go again if they have not regressed as an official. No one team goes to the Super Bowl every year, niether should the same officials do the Championship ever year either. But if you are good and have worked hard, I see nothing wrong with having multiple trips. Just not every year like you described in your other post.

Peace