tournament selection

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by mick
Of the 12 officials in each of the boys and girls tournaments, the UP gets one official, as do 5 other zones established by the state association. Three zones (metro Detroit, Flint/Saginaw, and Lansing/Grand Rapids) get 2 officials. From the Detroit area, there are a few officials who've done 2 finals, and I'm only aware of 1 who has done 3. From some of the other zones, it seems like there's a rotation of 3 or 4 officials who go regularly.
[/B]

The reason for this, of course, is that some of us in the U.P. are not very good. [/B][/QUOTE]


mick,
Not true!!!! Based on working with bunches of yoopers.

[oatmealqueen]

I find it really interesting reading about the different ways the playoffs are held in various states.
Do officials ever work more than one game per day during the tournament?

[tomegun]

Yes.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
Do officials ever work more than one game per day during the tournament?

It is not possible. The State assigns one game and one game a night only for a crew. Unless you have been assigned to the State Finals. The Saturday night (last night), some officials might do a Semifinal that afternoon and a Final or 3rd place game, later that night.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Jan 2nd, 2004 at 08:43 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
I find it really interesting reading about the different ways the playoffs are held in various states.
Do officials ever work more than one game per day during the tournament?

Not in Oregon. We have several rounds of play-offs first, and those are all played after school, only one round per day, assigned as any other game by the local association. At the tournament proper, refs only work one game per day.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by mick

The reason for this, of course, is that some of us in the U.P. are not very good.

And there are some U.P. there who are pretty darn good.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
I find it really interesting reading about the different ways the playoffs are held in various states.
Do officials ever work more than one game per day during the tournament?

Getting into this discussion kinda late, but...

Washington State has 5 classifications:
4A, 3A, 2A, A and B with 4A being the larger schools. (BTW, these are two whistle games at state, both boys and girs)

Our Association of about 80 officials usually sends 4 officials to the State Tournaments. Last year we had one official to each classification: excluding the 3A State Tournament.

16 officials are sent to each tournament in WA state. Many associations through out the state are represented at each tournament. The larger Associations (Seattle) may have 3 officials at each tournament.

It is very competitive at the tournament. An official is quaranteed 2 games...one Wednesday and one Thursday. The "ratings" come out Thursday night from the observers. Tournament officials patiently wait, as the observers tally their scores, to see if they get to continue the Tournament on Friday and/or Saturday. All 16 officials are ranked 1 through 16 by the observers. 8 officials "go home" after their second game.(8-16) 8 officials get to continue officiating in the tournament. (1-8)

Officials (1-4) get to do the "semis" and (1-2) get to do the championship game...with #3 the alternate.

We used to let the top 4 officials in our association go every year, if they wanted...but, now we voted to only allow an official to go 2 years in a row...then sitting out one year...and then eligible for another two years straight.

This gets a few more officials the oportunity to experience this great honor of officiating a state tournament. I for one think there is a fine line between a #4 official and a #6 official...so why not give #6 a shot? We had an official rated #5 for years that had to sit and watch the same 4 guys go every year...unless one of the guys wanted to give up his spot...now it is required to give it up, at least after 2 years straight.

RD

[rainmaker]

I'll tell you my primary beef about how the officials are chosen for state in our association. All the officials are thrown into one pot, and voted on by everyone. This means that if a ref only does girls games, as all the women do in our association, only half the coaches see them, and they never get enough votes to make the top of the list. Also, since we put women together as much as possible to give the girls as many women refs as possible, not nearly as many men refs have seen the women refs as partners, so the ref part of the vote heavily favors the men also.

So although we have several very capable women refs with years of experience, and lots of college and very high level HS experience, we have only two women who ever go to state, and then only two years on, and a year off, like everyone else. And neither has ever done the final. Yet a couple of years ago, I heard some of the refs from our association at state talking about how they never do girls games, and feel so out of their rhythm doing these games.

Women in our association get discouraged and quit, because there is not an avenue for advancement to state. It can't happen, so why bother?

The frustrating part is that the fix is so simple: Add a requirement that a ref must do x number of girls' varsity games to go to the girls' tournament, and make x a reasonable number such as 10 or 12. This would also spread the tourney eligibility out a little more among the men, and would get refs to the state tourney that know and appreciate the girls' game.

Okay, I'll climb down off my soap box now, and shut up.

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker

The frustrating part is that the fix is so simple: Add a requirement that a ref must do x number of girls' varsity games to go to the girls' tournament, and make x a reasonable number such as 10 or 12. This would also spread the tourney eligibility out a little more among the men, and would get refs to the state tourney that know and appreciate the girls' game.

Michigan has that requirement ... written .

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick

Michigan has that requirement ... written .

So.....

what makes it not work, as I think you're implying?

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So.....

what makes it not work, as I think you're implying?

... A lack of enforcement of the 10 required girl's varsity games.

Although, in many cases, the working "unqualified" officials are "quality officials", the message sent by the State of Michigan is that the written rule is not important. It hurts and confuses a young official.

My recommendation: Make the rule go away, ... or enforce it.
mick

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick

... A lack of enforcement of the 10 required girl's varsity games.

Although, in many cases, the working "unqualified" officials are "quality officials", the message sent by the State of Michigan is that the written rule is not important. It hurts and confuses a young official.

My recommendation: Make the rule go away, ... or enforce it.
mick

Yes, I see. I would be for making the rule at the local association level, and we would know who met the requirements and who didn't, just from looking at schedules and things. Women in our group who could make the cut if the positions weren't taken by otherwise-qualified men, would be able to look at records and require enforcement.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by mick

Michigan has that requirement ... written .

Mick,
Do you think that the lack of numbers, sometimes, causes the required number of games provision, to get thrown out the window?
It has in our area at times.
Just for the girl's basketball tournament over 700 officials indicated their availability, and a little over 650 were placed in the tournament (Districts, Regionals, QF's, SF's, and Finals).
Now if 100 turn them back in, 50 have a conflict, we now have a problem with numbers.
The selection process could use some help, IMO, but I'm not sure what the answer is.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'll tell you my primary beef about how the officials are chosen for state in our association. All the officials are thrown into one pot, and voted on by everyone. This means that if a ref only does girls games, as all the women do in our association, only half the coaches see them, and they never get enough votes to make the top of the list. Also, since we put women together as much as possible to give the girls as many women refs as possible, not nearly as many men refs have seen the women refs as partners, so the ref part of the vote heavily favors the men also.

So although we have several very capable women refs with years of experience, and lots of college and very high level HS experience, we have only two women who ever go to state, and then only two years on, and a year off, like everyone else. And neither has ever done the final. Yet a couple of years ago, I heard some of the refs from our association at state talking about how they never do girls games, and feel so out of their rhythm doing these games.

Women in our association get discouraged and quit, because there is not an avenue for advancement to state. It can't happen, so why bother?

The frustrating part is that the fix is so simple: Add a requirement that a ref must do x number of girls' varsity games to go to the girls' tournament, and make x a reasonable number such as 10 or 12. This would also spread the tourney eligibility out a little more among the men, and would get refs to the state tourney that know and appreciate the girls' game.

Okay, I'll climb down off my soap box now, and shut up.

Juulie,
Can someone work the girl's or boy's Tournament or Championship game without doing a single game during the season? More specifically, could an official who has not done one single girl's game work their tournament?
Also, are there women who work the boy's tournament?
thanks in advance

[Rich]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'll tell you my primary beef about how the officials are chosen for state in our association. All the officials are thrown into one pot, and voted on by everyone. This means that if a ref only does girls games, as all the women do in our association, only half the coaches see them, and they never get enough votes to make the top of the list. Also, since we put women together as much as possible to give the girls as many women refs as possible, not nearly as many men refs have seen the women refs as partners, so the ref part of the vote heavily favors the men also.

Why do you put women refs together for girls games? Why DON'T women refs work both sides so they can be seen by ALL the coaches?

There are only a few women refs in my neck of the woods, but the ones I know work varsity on BOTH sides.

What if the most qualified officials in the area are the ones working mostly boys games?

Just questions off the top of my head....off to work games 4 and 5 of the day.