tournament selection

[mick]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen

Mick,
Do you think that the lack of numbers, sometimes, causes the required number of games provision, to get thrown out the window?
It has in our area at times.
Just for the girl's basketball tournament over 700 officials indicated their availability, and a little over 650 were placed in the tournament (Districts, Regionals, QF's, SF's, and Finals).
Now if 100 turn them back in, 50 have a conflict, we now have a problem with numbers.
The selection process could use some help, IMO, but I'm not sure what the answer is.

oatmealqueen,
Of course. I understand that can exacerbate the problem.
But, as you know there are multiple discrepancies, not just number of games, not just lack of numbers in this area and in the area of MMOA, both under the presumed auspices of the MHSAA, the "largest sports officials organization of it's kind in the United States".
The largest ??!!!? Maybe it's too big to be effective.

mick

[mick]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen
More specifically, could an official who has not done one single girl's game work their tournament?

U.P. ---> one girls sub-varsity game = one regional final assignment.

[zebra44]

Mick, I feel like launching a 3 page diatribe on the politics of selection (U.P. wise), but I just remembered it's my New Year's resolution!

[Edited by zebra44 on Jan 3rd, 2004 at 02:37 PM]

[oatmealqueen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
[B]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'll tell you my primary beef about how the officials are chosen for state in our association. All the officials are thrown into one pot, and voted on by everyone. This means that if a ref only does girls games, as all the women do in our association, only half the coaches see them, and they never get enough votes to make the top of the list. Also, since we put women together as much as possible to give the girls as many women refs as possible, not nearly as many men refs have seen the women refs as partners, so the ref part of the vote heavily favors the men also.

Why do you put women refs together for girls games? Why DON'T women refs work both sides so they can be seen by ALL the coaches?



In Michigan, I have only worked 1 time with another woman in a tournament game (boy's and girl's) in 21 years.
That's not to say that there are no women. They tend to spread us around (ooh, that doesn't sound good) and place us with male officials.
I like it that way, and as you say, more people get to see us.
I do believe that ALL athletes should see strong women role models (as well as men) officiating, and Michigan has always been very progressive in tournament placement.
Juulie seems to be a strong advocate, and most likely a great role model; I'll bet that she can encourage a change for the better in her state.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by mick

U.P. ---> one girls sub-varsity game = one regional final assignment.

I know.. it does happen.

[mick]

Originally posted by zebra44
Mick, I feel like launching a 3 page diatribe on the politics of selection (U.P. wise), but I just remembered it's my New Year's resolution!

Yeah, zebra44,
You keep that resolution !
You have many more years left than I.
(Pretty cold for fishin' today; I bet that shanty kept movin' away from the hole with that 43 mph wind.)
mick

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I'll tell you my primary beef about how the officials are chosen for state in our association. All the officials are thrown into one pot, and voted on by everyone. This means that if a ref only does girls games, as all the women do in our association, only half the coaches see them, and they never get enough votes to make the top of the list. Also, since we put women together as much as possible to give the girls as many women refs as possible, not nearly as many men refs have seen the women refs as partners, so the ref part of the vote heavily favors the men also.

This is not really a fair depiction. With over 350 officials in the association (or over 200 regular members), it would take well over 10 years to work with every one in the association...by which time the membership would have changed drastically. After 10 years here, I've not worked with dozens of officials (not counting recently joining members).

Further, it would take a similar number years to work all of the schools for both boys and girls...by which time the coaches will have mostly changed. After 10 years here, I've not been to over 1/2 the schools.

BTW, it is not true that women only get girls games. Those that are qualified get boys games, even 4A.

The person with the fewest official's votes to work the tourney last year had just 18 officials voting for him (under 10% of vote eligible officals).

The person with the fewest coach's votes to work the tourney last year had just 8 coaches voting for him. (about 5% of vote eligible coaches).

Originally posted by rainmaker

So although we have several very capable women refs with years of experience, and lots of college and very high level HS experience, we have only two women who ever go to state, and then only two years on, and a year off, like everyone else. And neither has ever done the final.

That is approximately on par with percentages of women and men in the association. A lot of those guys that make state have been doing this for 20+ years. They paid their dues and stuck around and built their reputation until it was their turn. How many women have been around for 20+ years...none.

Originally posted by rainmaker
Yet a couple of years ago, I heard some of the refs from our association at state talking about how they never do girls games, and feel so out of their rhythm doing these games.

Women in our association get discouraged and quit, because there is not an avenue for advancement to state. It can't happen, so why bother?

Heck, it's not possible for 10 times as many men but they're not quitting. I'll probably never make state but that doesn't make me quit. I was told when I started that it takes an average of 10 years just to get a 4A boys varsity game (experienced transfers can get them after 1/2 a season after being observed). A few get one in 5-6 years, some never. The fact is that no one moves up and knocks someone out of a game unless they are BETTER than the other official...not just equal. This should apply to both men and women.

Originally posted by rainmaker

The frustrating part is that the fix is so simple: Add a requirement that a ref must do x number of girls' varsity games to go to the girls' tournament, and make x a reasonable number such as 10 or 12. This would also spread the tourney eligibility out a little more among the men, and would get refs to the state tourney that know and appreciate the girls' game.

If the goal is to get more women official into the playoffs that is wrong. The goal should be to get the best officials into the playoffs.

The girls games deserves to be treated the same as do women official...not seperate but equal. The only fair way is to put everyone in the same pot for votes.

However, I'm not opposed to having officials work a minumum number of games in girls/boys to work the playoffs. However, the reason would not be for spreading around the tourney but for the teams to get officials who're familiar with the style of the game.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jan 3rd, 2004 at 05:52 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The fact is that no one moves up and knocks someone out of a game unless they are BETTER than the other official...not just equal. This should apply to both men and women.

If the goal is to get more women official into the playoffs that is wrong. The goal should be to get the best officials into the playoffs.

The girls games deserves to be treated the same as do women official...not seperate but equal. The only fair way is to put everyone in the same pot for votes.

However, I'm not opposed to having officials work a minumum number of games in girls/boys to work the playoffs. However, the reason would not be for spreading around the tourney but for the teams to get officials who're familiar with the style of the game.

"Familiar with the style of the game" is definitely the point. The girls' game and the boys' game are very different. There are several women who are highly qualified who won't get positions, even though they are quite comfortable with the girls' game, because they've not been seen by enough coaches to get the number of votes they need to make it into the "top 16." And every year, several male refs make it to the girls' tourneys even though they haven't done any girls' games in however many years.

I know I'm not completely familiar with all the ins and outs of our system, and I do think it is much better than many other associations', but this one issue needs addressing. It's not fair that with all the talent and ability our association represents, we can't come up with a more equitable system both for the players, and for the refs.

I'm not worried about my own future -- I'm nowhere near ready for state yet, and when the time comes, I can play politics as well as the next person. I'm just seeing that women really don't have the same chances in our association, and the choice isn't only based on ability and experience.

To answer some other questions about Oregon, yes there are a very few varsity boys games every year that use women refs. I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I do know they are not in proportion to the number of women refs who are able and qualified to work those games. Women would be allowed to work the boys' tourneys on paper, but I don't think any ever have. And Barb, theoretically, a ref could work only boys all season and still work the final of the girls' tourney. I don't know if that has ever happened, but it's possible.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Heck, it's not possible for 10 times as many men but they're not quitting. I'll probably never make state but that doesn't make me quit.

Camron -- I'd be shocked if you didn't make state in the next few years. And that's NOT apple-polishing.