Too good to call lower?

[Smitty]

Originally posted by TPS2859
I too would like to know why the signals being properly used not a big deal? I've seen refs use signals that I wonder what book they got them from. Such as the over the back call... they look like a monkey hanging from a branch on the call to the bench. Or how about the "slid the hip over" to indicat a block call. Lots of discussion on looks from shiny shoes to no belted pants as far as profesionalism so how about proper signals.

I have to agree that there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to certain things being done properly. I've never seen so many people talk about whether it's ok to wear a belt or not, and the same people brush off using the proper mechanics for the game they're working. I don't get it. If you accept a high school game, regardless of where else you work, you should use the proper mechanics for a high school game. If it's hard to keep track of the differences in mechanics, maybe you shouldn't be working high school games.

[Forksref]

I think clean, crisp, no-nonsense signals are important. It's part of the total package of good officiating. I don't buy the claim that an official who calls a good game, yet uses lousy signals is a good official. I respect the ones who can do both. Also, a good looking uniform (this includes all-black shoes) is part of the total package.

[TPS2859]

It's not hard to keep track of the signals because I do use only those in the officials manuel! My gaol is to keep from being noticed by the fans, not to showboat by devising up my own form of foriegn sign language.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by TPS2859
I too would like to know why the signals being properly used not a big deal? I've seen refs use signals that I wonder what book they got them from. Such as the over the back call... they look like a monkey hanging from a branch on the call to the bench. Or how about the "slid the hip over" to indicat a block call. Lots of discussion on looks from shiny shoes to no belted pants as far as profesionalism so how about proper signals.

I will give you a good example, because the NF is the only ones that make us hold our hand up for an out of bounds play. So many college officials will never hold their hand up to call and out of bounds play. And before this year, we were the only ones required to "birddog" for a foul, regardless of how obvious it is. Now because many that are on the committee are indirectly or directly influenced by the NCAA, they got rid of the birddogging. But I bet you will not see a college official with belted pants. You also will see many college officials with some white on their shoes. Why, because the conferences do not have this "the shoes must be all black or else" policies. They allow a logo to show as long as the shoe is black. And the shinny shoes, I know many D1 officials that where them.

And also understand, the level of professionalism is completely differnet at the college level, then it will ever be at the HS level. Just to do a D3 or JUCO game, I have to be at the site an hour and a half before game time. If I am not mistaken, you have to be there over 2 hours before a D1 game. If you are not there at that time, you are considered late and can affect your future at that level or conference. It is much more than the rules that are different when you get to the college level.

So when officials that have achieved a certain level are not trying to impress someone to get a chance. They have already proven themselves as to what they do. So if you think you should be doing the same thing as a person that is only doing one JH game, because he might have been asked that day to fill in, I really do not know what you really expect. I know when I officiate, I am trying to get HS playoff games. Well many that are college officials are not availible for HS post-season. If they are like many, they are trying to get NCAA College Post-Season Assignments. I do not know that I would be concerned about whether I birddog or not.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by TPS2859
It's not hard to keep track of the signals because I do use only those in the officials manuel! My gaol is to keep from being noticed by the fans, not to showboat by devising up my own form of foriegn sign language.

It might be foreign to you, if you have never seen a college manual. All the mechanics are not the same. And if I have learn anything in all the sports I do, the book is a guide, not a Bible that has to be followed to the letter. I have yet to see a single veteran call a PC foul with a birddog. Maybe you have, but I have never known anyone to hold an official's feet to the fire over this issue.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Ok, I started this little brouhaha, so I guess I'll answer all of these at once.

Originally posted by TPS2859
I too would like to know why the signals being properly used not a big deal? I've seen refs use signals that I wonder what book they got them from.

As I said, proper signals are important. They're simply not as important as getting the calls right. Which would you rather have: an official who fails to stop the clock when calling a travel, or an official who calls 5 phantom travels, but uses great mechanics while doing it? Obviously, you want a guy (or gal) who does both. But wouldn't you ALWAYS rather have the guy who gets the call right? I would.

Originally posted by Smitty
I have to agree that there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to certain things being done properly. I've never seen so many people talk about whether it's ok to wear a belt or not, and the same people brush off using the proper mechanics for the game they're working. I don't get it.

These are not different at all. Whether it's ok or not to wear belted pants depends largely upon the fashion in the area of the country or the league where you officiate. Signals are the same way.

In HS, most associations and assignors stress proper mechanics. At higher levels of ball, assignors place MUCH MUCH more emphasis on play-calling and game management.

People's jobs and livelihoods are literally at stake at these levels; and frankly, if a guy loses a game and his job b/c the official missed the call, it's going to be very small consolation to him that the official had a straight arm when he called that phantom foul with 0:02 left in the game.

Originally posted by Folksref
I think clean, crisp, no-nonsense signals are important. It's part of the total package of good officiating. I don't buy the claim that an official who calls a good game, yet uses lousy signals is a good official. I respect the ones who can do both.

So the guys who work the NCAA tournament, but happen to use the NBA block signal aren't good officials? Give me a break! Of course you respect the officials who make great calls AND use great signals, but that doesn't mean that the guys who have let their signals slip are bad officials. Come on, that's just ludicrous.

I also said that the guy who does both has an advantage over the guy who has sloppy signals. Who's the NCAA guy who just points ("That way! That way!") on an offensive foul? I can't remember. But you want to tell me that he's NOT a good official? That's just silly.

Bottom line is to get the call right. Use the right signals when you do it, and you'll get noticed and you'll move up. But once you get up there, you darn well better get the call right, first and foremost.

JMO, but I think some of you may want to rethink your criticisms a little bit.

[Smitty]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics. I know that the best games I have are with a partner who is on the same page as me and I know exactly what he's doing whenever he blows the whistle. If my partner starts using mechanics I am not familiar with, it's only going to cause confusion and hesitancy on my part trying to figure out what he's got. I don't care if a guy is new or has dozens of years experience, if he uses funky mechanics it's only going to hurt my game as his partner.

[Edited by Smitty on Dec 8th, 2003 at 04:31 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics. I know that the best games I have are with a partner who is on the same page as me and I know exactly what he's doing whenever he blows the whistle. If my partner starts using mechanics I am not familiar with, it's only going to cause confusion and hesitancy on my part trying to figure out what he's got. I don't care if a guy is new or has dozens of years experience, if he uses funky mechanics it's only going to hurt my game as his partner.

Then what you need to do is expand your horizons. Because I have learned many college mechanics, by watching college basketball on TV. And when I realized that Women's Mechanics were very different than Men's Mechanics, I learned something. And there are many officials that work both HS and college and I do not expect they are going to use only NF Mechanics when they might officiate more college than HS. If I am that confused, it is time to educate yourself to what someone else is doing. And not raising their hand for an out of bounds, should not be a major issue with any official.

Just my opinion.

Peace

[Smitty]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Then what you need to do is expand your horizons. Because I have learned many college mechanics, by watching college basketball on TV. And when I realized that Women's Mechanics were very different than Men's Mechanics, I learned something. And there are many officials that work both HS and college and I do not expect they are going to use only NF Mechanics when they might officiate more college than HS. If I am that confused, it is time to educate yourself to what someone else is doing. And not raising their hand for an out of bounds, should not be a major issue with any official.

Just my opinion.

Peace

I respectfully disagree. I think you have it backwards. But that's just my opinion.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Smitty


I respectfully disagree. I think you have it backwards. But that's just my opinion.

Well, officiating is more than one level. And in my opinion, if you cannot tell what someone has beyond the NF Mechanics manual, then I wonder how many times you are in the dark. Because I have never met a single official that did absolutely everything to the letter in that book. Or better yet, did not put some individual style on the perscribed mechanics.

To each his own.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
In HS, most associations and assignors stress proper mechanics. At higher levels of ball, assignors place MUCH MUCH more emphasis on play-calling and game management.

[/B]

Agree completely.

Has anybody ever seen Bobby Knight scream at an official because he had poor mechanics?

[smoref]

I do both HS and college. I try it use NF mechanics in HS but I sometimes do forget to raise my hand for OOB or I punch for a PC call.

I do think it is very important to be a role model for the lower level officials that have a desire to move up.

In my pregame for HS I will always state that they might see some CCA mechanics but I will try not to.

However on the flip side in the college game there is alot more communciation between officials and I think that that will bring a crew closure together then raising a hand every time for OOB or choping to start the clock.

[cmathews]

Just a little comment I have heard from a guy in our Football association that works D1 football. We give him a hard time because he often confuses the rules, and we have to correct him, his response: I can get away with making a college call in a high school game, but I would get fired for making a high school call in a college game..... Just some food for thought...

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Smitty
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I only work high school games. I don't work college games or pay much attention to college mechanics.

Smitty, that's great. I mean that sincerely. The majority of basketball officials in this country never sniff the NCAA. And there's nothing wrong wtih that. Nobody here is telling you to stop using good mechanics, or to stop trying to improve. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't beat up on the really really good officials at the top of the NCAA (remember this thread was started b/c of an NCAA D1 official) simply b/c their mechanics aren't as crisp as yours.

Keep using good signals (I do); keep trying to improve (I do); and keep working as hard as you can (I do). Let the assignors worry about those guys' mechanics. That's all I'll say about it.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Smitty, that's great. I mean that sincerely. The majority of basketball officials in this country never sniff the NCAA. And there's nothing wrong wtih that. Nobody here is telling you to stop using good mechanics, or to stop trying to improve. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't beat up on the really really good officials at the top of the NCAA (remember this thread was started b/c of an NCAA D1 official) simply b/c their mechanics aren't as crisp as yours.

Keep using good signals (I do); keep trying to improve (I do); and keep working as hard as you can (I do). Let the assignors worry about those guys' mechanics. That's all I'll say about it.

I think we understand each other. I certainly respect guys that have a lot of experience, and honestly I've never worked with anyone with more experience than I have (I have 11 years in) that used bad enough mechanics that I didn't know what he was doing. I just think in general, a guy should do his best to respect the game he's working as best he can and use the proper mechanics as best he can. As long as there is a clear distinction between HS and college mechanics, we all should work the proper level. Not to mention the newer guys seeing the experienced guys shortcutting mechanics and thinking that's a cool way to do it and picking up those mechanics thinking they can get away with it. But I guess every association is different as far as what they expect people to do (I've worked in 5 different associations and so I know how different they can be) and you just have to do what you think is best for your association.

And I certainly have an appreciation for getting the calls right. That absolutely is the highest priority.