Substitutes: NHSA Part 1, Q#65

plmartin18 · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 03:11pm

Can't find this anywhere in the Rules or Case book.

ocreferee · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 03:18pm

What's the question? Maybe we can help.

plmartin18 · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 03:24pm

T or F - It is permissable to withdraw a player before the clock properly starts following his or her substitution into the game.

Barry C. Morris · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by plmartin18
T or F - It is permissable to withdraw a player before the clock properly starts following his or her substitution into the game.

The answer is true. The only way the question would be false is if they added that the player was being withdrawn for the player he originally substituted for.

nine01c · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 03:44pm

The answer is true. The only way the question would be false is if they added that the player was being withdrawn for the player he originally substituted for...
[/QUOTE]

or, for ANY ineligible sub.

ocreferee · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 03:44pm

Quote:

T or F - It is permissable to withdraw a player before the clock properly starts following his or her substitution into the game.

I know it is true for all codes but can only find the NCAA reference 3-4-12 "A player who legally enters the game during a dead ball may leave the game during that same dead-ball period without penalty."

plmartin18 · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 03:59pm

Thanks. I thought it was True, but still can't find a reference.

So... on a throw in, before the ball is in play, a coach can substitute A6 for A1, then A7 for A6, then A8 for A7, etc.

A pretty good delay tactic if you need it.

Barry C. Morris · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 04:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by plmartin18
Thanks. I thought it was True, but still can't find a reference.

Remember, there's not a rule reference for every conceivable play. We are told what is illegal regarding substitions in the rule book and this situation is not one of them.

Quote:

Originally posted by plmartin18
A pretty good delay tactic if you need it.

Not really, a referee should simply administer the throw in and say the sub wasn't at the table if he/she saw this tactic being used.

Jurassic Referee · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 04:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by plmartin18
T or F - It is permissable to withdraw a player before the clock properly starts following his or her substitution into the game.

See NFHS casebook play 3.3.3SitA. Substitution is legal.

nine01c · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 04:50pm

So... on a throw in, before the ball is in play, a coach can substitute A6 for A1, then A7 for A6, then A8 for A7, etc.

[/QUOTE]

Remember, once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in, the ball is LIVE, and the referee should not beckon a sub in at this time.

plmartin18 · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 04:53pm

Thanks for all the help and clarification.

Back In The Saddle · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 04:59pm

The only related rule I could find states that a player that has been substituted for may not return to the game as a substitute until the clock has run. So...the rulebook does cover the subject of substitution, and it does not prohibit this case. I conclude legal, ergo the answer is True.

Jurassic Referee · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 06, 2003, 05:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
The only related rule I could find states that a player that has been substituted for may not return to the game as a substitute until the clock has run. So...the rulebook does cover the subject of substitution, and it does not prohibit this case. I conclude legal, ergo the answer is True.

BITS, as I stated above, the NFHS reference is casebook play 3.3.3SitA. That gives you the answer.

eddie736 · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 08, 2003, 01:11am

A1 is injured during a play in which A1 has been fouled. As a result, A1 cannot attempt the free throw awarded to him/her. Substitute A6 replaces A1 and attempts the free throw which is successful. Substitute A7 replaces A6 before the clock starts. RULING: the subtitution is legal. (8-2)

I'm not sure that this really addresses Q65, but it's as close as the rule book ever gets.

The situation Q65 is asking about, in my mind is: A6 replaces A1 at a dead ball. Before the clock starts properly, the coach changes his/her mind and wants to substitute A7 for A6. Do you allow the substitution?

I say yes.

Jurassic Referee · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 08, 2003, 07:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by eddie736
A1 is injured during a play in which A1 has been fouled. As a result, A1 cannot attempt the free throw awarded to him/her. Substitute A6 replaces A1 and attempts the free throw which is successful. Substitute A7 replaces A6 before the clock starts. RULING: the subtitution is legal. (8-2)

I'm not sure that this really addresses Q65, but it's as close as the rule book ever gets.

The situation Q65 is asking about, in my mind is: A6 replaces A1 at a dead ball. Before the clock starts properly, the coach changes his/her mind and wants to substitute A7 for A6. Do you allow the substitution?

I say yes.

I say you're wrong in the specific case that you quoted above. Changing a substitute after they've enter the game is only allowed in 2 specific cases, and they're both covered in the rulebook. Those cases are an injured player(R8-2), and free throws for a technical foul(R8-3).The rules don't allow any other exceptions than those two,especially a coach changing his mind after a substitute has entered.

The answer to Q65's question is true because of the 2 specific cases outlined in 8-2 and 8-3.