Substitutes: NHSA Part 1, Q#65

[PAULK1]

JR the exceptions you are referring to are for who may shoot the FT's not for substitutions in general.
if an eligible subsitute reports he/she can enter when opportunity is there. to be ineligible you must be
1. disqualified
2. directed to leave the game for blood or injury
and try to reenter before the clock has started
3. substituted for and try to reenter before the clock has started.
4. if the subsitutes equipment or apparel is listed in 3-5
5. was unconcious without medical approval.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by PAULK1
JR the exceptions you are referring to are for who may shoot the FT's not for substitutions in general.

No, I am telling you about substitutions in general. If a player is legally substituted into a game, that player must stay in the game until the clock has run and the next legal substitution opportunity then occurs. That's NFHS rule 3-3-4. There are 2 exceptions ONLY allowed to rule 3-3-4. As outlined in Rules 8-2 and 8-3, they are an injured foul shooter and players coming in to shoot a technical foul shot. Casebook plays 3.3.3SitA and 8.2SIT further explains and confirms these two exceptions.

The above exceptions are what makes the answer to plmartin18's original qustion "true". Eddie376's scenario,where a coach wants to sub again before the clock starts for a player who had just come in is NOT one of the 2 exceptions, so it is illegal under R3-3-4.

Make sense now?

[PAULK1]

That is not what 3-3-4 says.
a player (this is the person leaving the game)who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not reenter
before the next opportunity to susbstitute after the clock has started properly folowing his or her replacement.
it says nothing about the sub having to stay in the game until the clock starts.

8-2 allows for another team member(bench personnel to unless none available) to shoot the FT when to player
awarded the FT cannot due to injury or DQ.

3.3.3a confims that A6 may shoot the FT per 8-2
but it also confirms that A6 the sub maybe sub'd for at anytime the opportunity for subing is available.

[JeffTheRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I say you're wrong in the specific case that you quoted above. Changing a substitute after they've enter the game is only allowed in 2 specific cases, and they're both covered in the rulebook. Those cases are an injured player(R8-2), and free throws for a technical foul(R8-3).The rules don't allow any other exceptions than those two,especially a coach changing his mind after a substitute has entered.

The answer to Q65's question is true because of the 2 specific cases outlined in 8-2 and 8-3.

I can't believe I've managed to avoid this situation! Jurassic, have you actually been faced with this?? Your commentary seems correct . . . has anybody had to adjudicate this on the spot?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I am telling you about substitutions in general. If a player is legally substituted into a game, that player must stay in the game until the clock has run and the next legal substitution opportunity then occurs. That's NFHS rule 3-3-4.

Umm, I don't think so, JR. You've got the NBA rule stuck in your head or something. In the NBA, a player subbed into the game must stay in for a tick of the clock. In HS and NCAA, a player subbed out must stay out of the game for a tick of the clock. FED 3-3-4 discusses a player who is subbed OUT of the game; not into the game.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 8th, 2003 at 05:13 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
[/B]

Umm, I don't think so, JR. You've got the NBA rule stuck in your head or something. In the NBA, a player subbed into the game must stay in for a tick of the clock. In HS and NCAA, a player subbed out must stay out of the game for a tick of the clock. FED 3-3-4 discusses a player who is subbed OUT of the game; not into the game.

[/B][/QUOTE]Yeah,I think you're right. I got carried away on that one- even though I didn't really have to get into that part because it wasn't even relevant to the original question. I stand by the rest of it, though. The answer to Plmartin18's original question is still "true", partially because of the 2 exceptions noted.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 8th, 2003 at 05:55 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by eddie736
The situation Q65 is asking about, in my mind is: A6 replaces A1 at a dead ball. Before the clock starts properly, the coach changes his/her mind and wants to substitute A7 for A6. Do you allow the substitution?

No, A7 now replaces A6. A1 is already out of the game.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 19th, 2003 at 03:46 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Yeah,I think you're right. I got carried away on that one- even though I didn't really have to get into that part because it wasn't even relevant to the original question. I stand by the rest of it, though. The answer to Plmartin18's original question is still "true", partially because of the 2 exceptions noted.

Damn! Chuck and Paul got him before I could get to him!

[Jurassic Referee]

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

NNo, A7 now replaces A6. A1 isd already out of the game.

In this case, I don't see how A7 could have properly reported to the scorer and been in position BEFORE the dead ball. If he had been, then you would have beckoned him in at the same time as A6. Therefore, I'm not letting him in the game to replace A6.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

In this case, I don't see how A7 could have properly reported to the scorer and been in position BEFORE the dead ball. If he had been, then you would have beckoned him in at the same time as A6. Therefore, I'm not letting him in the game to replace A6.

Where is the rule that a sub must have reported before the ball becomes dead?

[bigwhistle]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

In this case, I don't see how A7 could have properly reported to the scorer and been in position BEFORE the dead ball. If he had been, then you would have beckoned him in at the same time as A6. Therefore, I'm not letting him in the game to replace A6.

A6 is at table to replace A1 when ball becomes dead. A6 is beckoned into game. Team B calls time out. Before the warning horn A7 reports to replace A6. Does this senerio satisfy you Nevada?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by bigwhistle

A6 is at table to replace A1 when ball becomes dead. A6 is beckoned into game. Team B calls time out. Before the warning horn A7 reports to replace A6. Does this senerio satisfy you Nevada?

Yes. In this senario, A7 may enter and A6 may legally leave.

[plmartin18]

Well, I certainly didn't expect this much debate!

After reading all posts, and talking about it with other refs, I believe Q65 is true.

I took the NFHS test online and missed one. I'm not sure which one yet, but it had better not be Q65!

[CYO Butch]

Willie Price's thread on the score book took me back to the Instructions and Duties for the Scorer of Basketball Games. The part that seems to be relevant to this thread says under Substitutions: "A player who has been withdrawn may not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following the player’s replacement."
How does that affect this discussion?