IAABO Refresher Exam #17

[BillyMac]

Our IAABO Refresher Exam study group met last night. We could not come up with a consensus on question #17. We did not have access to an answer sheet, but were given a citation 4-42-5.

Note that unlike other similar questions in past years, the kick was by the throwin team.

#17 Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating-possession procedure. A-1’s throw-in is kicked by A-2. The official awards the ball to Team B and has the scorer turn the arrow toward Team B’s basket. Is the official correct?

What say you, and why?

[Raymond]

What are the conditions that cause an AP throw-in to end?

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[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Our IAABO Refresher Exam study group met last night. We could not come up with a consensus on question #17. We did not have access to an answer sheet, but were given a citation 4-42-5.

Note that unlike other similar questions in past years, the kick was by the throwin team.
#17 Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in under the alternating-possession procedure. A-1’s throw-in is kicked by A-2. The official awards the ball to Team B and has the scorer turn the arrow toward Team B’s basket. Is the official correct?

What say you, and why?

I say NO and here is why
Team A keeps the A/P arrow. Did Team A violate the Throw-in? No. Was the ball legally touched? No, it was kicked. Thus, DO NOT change the A/P arrow. The new Throw-in is from the result of the Kick violation. Team B will have the Throw-in at one of the 8 magic location (4 in the Front court, 4 in the Back court) based on the location of the kick violation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

I say NO and here is why

Team A keeps the A/P arrow. Did Team A violate the Throw-in? No. Was the ball legally touched? No, it was kicked. Thus, DO NOT change the A/P arrow. The new Throw-in is from the result of the Kick violation. Team B will have the Throw-in at one of the 8 magic location (4 in the Front court, 4 in the Back court) based on the location of the kick violation.

What causes an AP throw-in to end, knowing that the AP arrow changes when an AP throw-in ends.

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[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

I say NO and here is why
Team A keeps the A/P arrow. Did Team A violate the Throw-in? No. Was the ball legally touched? No, it was kicked. Thus, DO NOT change the A/P arrow. The new Throw-in is from the result of the Kick violation. Team B will have the Throw-in at one of the 8 magic location (4 in the Front court, 4 in the Back court) based on the location of the kick violation.

The rule says "lost if the throw-in team violates", which they did via the kick. Loss of arrow.

[bob jenkins]

Interesting. NCAAW specifically says "throw-in violation" (emphasis added):

Art. 2. The alternating-possession procedure starts when an official places
the ball at the disposal of a player for a throw-in� The alternating-possession
procedure ends and the arrow is reversed immediately when a passed ball legally
touches an inbounds player, when a player, who is located on the playing court,
touches and causes the ball to be out of bounds, or when the throw-in team
commits a throw-in violation�

Art. 7. The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in shall be
lost when the throw-in team violates the throw-in provisions� (See Rule 9-4�

I always thought it was the same. Did it change in NFHS?

[SNIPERBBB]

ART. 6 . . . The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If the defensive team commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is not switched.

The way it's worded to me means any violation by A loses the arrow. If NFHS said "committed a throw-in violation" or "violates the throw-in" it would be clearer if they intend for A to not lose the arrow here.

[BillyMac]

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

ART. 6 . . . The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If the defensive team commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is not switched.

More:

6-4 Alternating Possession
ART. 5 The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends as in 4-42-5.
ART. 6 The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow. If the defensive team commits a violation during the throw-in, the possession arrow is not switched.

4-42 Throw-In
ART. 5 . . . The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

[Raymond]

Is the phrase "throw-in violation" defined in the rulebook?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Is the phrase "throw-in violation" defined in the rulebook?

Rule 9 Violations And Penalties
Rule 9 - Section 2
Throw-In Provisions
ART. 1 The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.
ART. 2 The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.
ART. 3 The thrown ball shall not be touched by a teammate of the thrower while the ball is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane, except as in 7-5-7.
ART. 4 Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.
ART. 5 The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court.
ART. 6 The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 7 The thrown ball shall not enter the basket before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 8 The thrown ball shall not become lodged between the backboard and ring or come to rest on the flange before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 9 The thrower shall not be replaced by a teammate after the ball is at the thrower’s disposal, except as in 7-5-7.
ART. 10 The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.
NOTE: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass. The opponent in this situation may legally touch or grasp the ball.

[Raymond]

I don't see mention of a throw-in ending in what was just posted.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't see mention of a throw-in ending in what was just posted.

4-42 Throw-In
ART. 5 The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

[Raymond]

There has to be a difference between a throw-in ending and an AP throw-in ending or what causes the arrow to be switched.

The two latest citations posted don't account for the defensive team kicking the ball. It just says throw-in ends end when somebody touches the ball inbounds. Doesn't differentiate between legal and illegal touching.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There has to be a difference between a throw-in ending and an AP throw-in ending or what causes the arrow to be switched. The two latest citations posted don't account for the defensive team kicking the ball. It just says throw-in ends end when somebody touches the ball inbounds. Doesn't differentiate between legal and illegal touching.

Agree that the actual NFHS rule language and the NFHS case plays don't seem to match.

Exactly forty years ago (has it been that long) when the alternating possession arrow was first introduced (before that all held ball situations were actually decided by jump balls at one of three different jump ball circles on the court) the original interpretation of a defensive kick on a throwin was that while the touch was an indeed an illegal touch, it was still nevertheless a touch that ended the throwin, and the arrow would be switched.

Soon after that the NFHS changed the interpretation and I’ve been confused ever since.