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Old Wed Jun 19, 2024, 01:28pm
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Not Beckoned Technical Foul ???

IAABO (not the NFHS) came out with an interesting ruling on a recent "Make The Call" play:

When bench personnel (head coach, assistant coach, trainer, etc) enter the court without being beckoned to attend to an injured player, it will lead to the injured player needing to be replaced by a substitute.

The head coach may request a 30-second or 60-second time-out to attempt to keep the injured player in the game. If the situation can be resolved by the conclusion of the time-out, the player may continue.

Should a technical foul be ruled?

Several respondents indicated they would rule a technical foul in this situation which does have rules support. The NFHS rules book states Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not enter the court unless by permission of an official to attend an injured player (NFHS 10-5-2).

However, there is an interpretation in the NFHS Casebook that implies that when bench personnel run onto the floor without being beckoned, the officials have rules support to merely direct the injured player to the bench.

A1 appears to be injured and an official properly halts play and the Team A coach rushes onto the court to check A1. However, A1 is OK and seems ready to play within a few seconds. RULING: A1 must be removed as the coach came onto the court. A1 may remain in the game if the coach does not come on the court and A1 is ready to play immediately. If the coach or other bench personnel have come onto the court, the player must be replaced (NFHS 3.3.6 Situation B).

3.3.6 SITUATION B: A1 appears to be injured and an official properly halts play and the Team A coach rushes onto the court to check A1. However, A1 is OK and seems ready to play within a few seconds. RULING: A1 must be removed as the coach came onto the court. A1 may remain in the game if the coach does not come on the court and A1 is ready to play immediately. If the coach or other bench personnel have come onto the court, the player must be replaced. There is no set amount of time as to what is “immediately,” but it should not involve more than a few seconds and it must be without the coach, athletic trainer or doctor being beckoned and/or entering the court. The coach may also request a time-out to keep the player in the game provided the replacement interval for the substitution has not begun. (10-4-2)

Based on this casebook play, we would not advocate for officials to issue a technical foul in this situation.

The NFHS may want to consider changing the wording in the rule to match the interpretation. We will raise this issue and see if it can be addressed in the future.

It should be noted, that the NFHS has approved a rules change for the 2024-25 season that impacts injury situations when an official beckons bench personnel onto the court to attend to an injured player.

A player who has been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench personnel is beckoned OR comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by, and granted to, the injured player’s team and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out. This returns the rule to where an official "beckoning" a head coach or bench personnel to come onto the court will require the injured player be replaced with a substitute (NFHS 3-3-6).

The key phrase here is bench personnel is "beckoned OR comes onto the court."

This change means that once an official beckons bench personnel, the injured player will need to have a substitute unless the head coach decides to take a time-out to keep the player in the game.

In prior years this word was "and," which implied that if the head coach did not enter the court, no substitute would be required.

This year the committee addressed this situation to make it clear that an official beckoning will trigger the need for a substitute.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 21, 2024 at 08:08am.
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Old Mon Jul 01, 2024, 12:57am
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One of the rule changes this year will make that situation obsolete. If you beckon the coach, the player must go even if the coach does not enter the court. You can assume the case play will be updated to match. This change is merely to return to what it was just a few years ago.
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Old Mon Jul 01, 2024, 03:25pm
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Beckon ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If you beckon the coach, the player must go even if the coach does not enter the court.
In my middle school games, especially girls, I almost always beckon as soon as a player goes down and stays down for a few seconds.

I've got to stop doing that almost automatically and start thinking about it for a second, or so.

"Is this player really hurt?"

"Should I beckon the coach?"
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Old Mon Jul 01, 2024, 08:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In my middle school games, especially girls, I almost always beckon as soon as a player goes down and stays down for a few seconds.

I've got to stop doing that almost automatically and start thinking about it for a second, or so.

"Is this player really hurt?"

"Should I beckon the coach?"
Why do you do it in girls games and not boys games?

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Old Tue Jul 02, 2024, 08:57am
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Protective ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Why do you do it in girls games and not boys games?
Sugar and spice and everything nice.
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Old Tue Jul 02, 2024, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sugar and spice and everything nice.
I don't understand that response. I was asking a serious question about why you treat athletes differently based on gender when it comes to hitting the floor.

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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jul 02, 2024 at 12:12pm.
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Old Tue Jul 02, 2024, 12:45pm
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I'd also ask why the need to beckon at all?

In 99.9% of the cases:

1) the coach will see the affected player.

2) Any reasonable time lapse between the player (potentially) being injured and the time the coach gets out there won't affect the seriousness of the injury (e.g., the ACL is already torn, or not -- it's not going to "tear more" while the coach takes a few seconds to decide if the payer is really hurt or just landed awkwardly).

Our only real role is to deiced how long "immediately" is so we know when to resume play.
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Old Tue Jul 02, 2024, 01:21pm
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Horses and Zebras ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I was asking a serious question about why you treat athletes differently based on gender when it comes to hitting the floor.
While there are lots of exceptions, forty plus years of officiating, and twenty-five years of coaching of both boys and girls, including my own son and daughters, have taught me that girls and boys often deal with injuries and pain in different ways.

Girls are more likely to cry, to stay down, and are more likely to want a coach to comfort them on such occasions, and usually don't complain when the coach has them sit a few minutes on the bench to compose themselves.

Boys are less likely to cry, and often likely to be up and walking (limping) before the coach gets to them, insisting that they're alright, want to "walk it off, and want to keep playing.

Maybe the difference isn't observed as much at the college level (they're now young women not adolescent girls), but I definitely see this gender difference in my middle school games.

Again, there are lots of exceptions, many tough girls, and many soft boys.

Of course, it also depends on the injury. When girls go down with a knee injury, I immediately think about the possibility of an ACL injury.

Yes, boys can have ACL injuries, but statistics point out that girls are much more likely to sustain such an ACL injury.

The relative risk of ACL injury in women is 3 to 8 times greater than males.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jul 02, 2024 at 02:41pm.
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Old Tue Jul 02, 2024, 06:49pm
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Comforting Words ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Any reasonable time lapse between the player (potentially) being injured and the time the coach gets out there won't affect the seriousness of the injury (e.g., the ACL is already torn, or not, it's not going to "tear more" while the coach takes a few seconds to decide if the player is really hurt or just landed awkwardly).
Sometimes a downed player just needs some comforting words from his or her coach. Parents expect coaches to do such, as so do many officials.
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Old Tue Jul 02, 2024, 07:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
While there are lots of exceptions, forty plus years of officiating, and twenty-five years of coaching of both boys and girls, including my own son and daughters, have taught me that girls and boys often deal with injuries and pain in different ways.

Girls are more likely to cry, to stay down, and are more likely to want a coach to comfort them on such occasions, and usually don't complain when the coach has them sit a few minutes on the bench to compose themselves.

Boys are less likely to cry, and often likely to be up and walking (limping) before the coach gets to them, insisting that they're alright, want to "walk it off, and want to keep playing.

Maybe the difference isn't observed as much at the college level (they're now young women not adolescent girls), but I definitely see this gender difference in my middle school games.

Again, there are lots of exceptions, many tough girls, and many soft boys.

Of course, it also depends on the injury. When girls go down with a knee injury, I immediately think about the possibility of an ACL injury.

Yes, boys can have ACL injuries, but statistics point out that girls are much more likely to sustain such an ACL injury.

The relative risk of ACL injury in women is 3 to 8 times greater than males.
Except for your comment about young females suffering knee injuries at a higher rate than young males, the rest of that stuff must be a Connecticut thing. And I doubt it's a Connecticut thing that UConn's women's coach would agree with.

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Old Tue Jul 02, 2024, 07:30pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sometimes a downed player just needs some comforting words from his or her coach. Parents expect coaches to do such, as so do many officials.
As do you, not many officials. All this stuff you're talking about is the first I've ever heard. I have never heard anybody discuss girls basketball this way. I have however, heard many girls coaches and former players complain about having their games officiated differently than boys games.

Might be time for you to join this decade and discard that "sugar and spice", "I gotta protect the weaker sex" philosophy.

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Last edited by Raymond; Tue Jul 02, 2024 at 08:12pm.
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Old Wed Jul 03, 2024, 04:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Sometimes a downed player just needs some comforting words from his or her coach. Parents expect coaches to do such, as so do many officials.
To the extent this is true -- then *let* the coach come out; don't *beckon* the coach to come out.
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Old Wed Jul 03, 2024, 05:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Except for your comment about young females suffering knee injuries at a higher rate than young males, the rest of that stuff must be a Connecticut thing. And I doubt it's a Connecticut thing that UConn's women's coach would agree with.
The coach at UConn did recently say that he "Coaches basketball" he does not coach "Women's basketball." He went on to say that he gets upset when coaches treat young ladies differently than other male players. He expects toughness regardless of who you are.

But regardless of what is likely, if a player stays down and acts clearly hurt (even if it is not serious) I would not treat the situation differently in principle. I do not do a lot of middle school (actually have not in years) but little boys cried when all kinds of things at a young age and it does not have to be because of an injury or being hurt. They cry if you call a foul on them. IJS.

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Old Wed Jul 03, 2024, 11:53am
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Injury And Pain ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... the rest of that stuff must be a Connecticut thing.
Possibly, but I've been almost solely doing middle school basketball (boys and girls) for the past five years, and I did Catholic middle school basketball (boys and girls) on my off nights from varsity high school games for about thirty years, and, though anecdotal, I swear that middle school girls and boys often (though not always) deal with injuries and pain in different ways.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jul 03, 2024 at 02:58pm.
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Old Wed Jul 03, 2024, 11:58am
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Beckon ...

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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
To the extent this is true, then "let" the coach come out; don't "beckon" the coach to come out.
Good advice, especially with new rule and interpretation that implies that such a coach isn't charged with technical foul, while a "beckon" alone kicks in the "sit a tick or take a timeout rule".
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