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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 14, 2023, 12:16pm
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Active ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Let them speak for themselves.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... possibly some who may no longer be active Forum members.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 14, 2023, 12:25pm
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Eleven Years ???

Seems like only yesterday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
I'm still hoping they actually codify the neck/head contact with a swinging elbow one of these decades.
I think that the NFHS considers it codified with the three relevant caseplays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I think they did that already.
Agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Case book 9.13.1 and 9.13.2 covers this to some extent.
Contact Above Shoulders

4.19.3 SITUATION F: After a rebound, A1, while holding the ball, pivots and A1’s elbow contacts B1 above the shoulders. A1's elbow is violently and excessively swung at a speed in excess of the player’s torso. RULING: If the contact is violent or excessive, a flagrant foul shall be called. (4-27, 4-19-2, 4-19-3, 4-19-4)

9.13.1 SITUATION B: A1 is trapped in the corner by B1 and B2, who are in legal guarding position. In an attempt to create space, A1 rapidly swings arms/elbows while using the shoulders as pivots (a) without making contact; (b) making contact with an opponent above the shoulders and elbows are moving faster than the body. RULING: In (a), A1 excessively swinging arms/elbows without contacting the opponent is a violation. Team B is awarded a designated spot throw-in nearest the violation. In (b), this is considered an intentional foul. (9-13-1)

9.13.2 SITUATION: A5 catches the ball on a rebound, “chins” the ball and then turns (with the elbow at the same speed as the body) to make an outlet pass with the elbow leading the way. Prior to releasing the ball, A1’s elbow contacts B5 above the shoulders. RULING: This may be ruled incidental contact or a player control foul.

2012-13 Points Of Emphasis
Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.
a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.
b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 14, 2023 at 05:05pm.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 14, 2023, 12:28pm
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Clear, Precise, Accurate, Complete ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
I wouldnt worry about this until next year...
I would love to see this in the body of the casebook next year:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2023-24 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 5: An official administers a throw-in to Team A, when the throw-in should have been given to Team B. A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and B2 knocks the ball loose. While the ball is loose, the official recognizes their mistake, whistles and awards the ball to Team B for a throw-in from the same spot. RULING: Correct procedure. COMMENT: A loose ball does not change the status of the ball as it is still in Team As control. The mistake can be corrected until the status of the ball changes. The clock should be reset to the time remaining when the throw-in was made by Team A. (7-6-6)
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 14, 2023, 05:03pm
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Paraphrasing The Rationale Of Others ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
You're the one who said that new officials wouldn't be able to figure out how to rule such a play.
Never said it myself, just paraphrasing the rationale of others who had chosen to ignore the interpretation of the caseplay (and ruling differently) after its one and done appearance in the casebook despite no relevant rule changes or interpretation changes after the citation vanished.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 14, 2023 at 05:06pm.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 14, 2023, 05:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Never said it myself, just paraphrasing the rationale of others who had chosen to ignore the interpretation of the caseplay (and ruling differently) after its one and done appearance in the casebook despite no relevant rule changes or interpretation changes after the citation vanished.
You said the rules as written wouldn't allow new officials to interpret the "body on the floor" play. You didn't quote somebody else. Why do you keep on bringing up this case play that disappeared? We have rules that cover the play. Why can't people properly interpret that play based on the rules written? Why do you constantly and incessantly bring up this case play that disappeared and ignore the three rules that are in the rule book?

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Last edited by Raymond; Wed Nov 15, 2023 at 07:50am.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 14, 2023, 05:35pm
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Rationale To Ignore ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
You said the rules as written wouldn't allow no officials to interpret the "body on the floor" play.
Never said that, or believed that, myself, just paraphrasing (mimicking, sometimes sarcastically, or as a parody) past Forum members who had chosen to ignore the interpretation of the caseplay (and ruling differently in games) after its one and done appearance (using the "done" part as a rationale for their warped interpretation) in the casebook despite no relevant rule changes or interpretation changes after the citation vanished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The only way that young'uns can learn this specific “being tripped is not the same as tripping” interpretation is through the tradition of old, grizzled officials sitting around a blazing campfire with young'uns and telling oral stories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
"How can an almost twenty year old case play that only appeared for a single year in the casebook and is no longer in the casebook be relevant to officials who have been officiating less than twenty years?".

"How many interpreters/trainers bring up this casebook play as a part of rookie instruction?".

"How can such an official explain this situation to a coach without the benefit of pointing it out in a casebook?".

"Sorry coach, I can't show you the play in the casebook but just go on the internet to the Official Basketball Forum and search for 2004-05 NFHS Casebook: 10.6.1 Situation E".

"Well, some anonymous official ... who goes by the username BillyMac, from a little corner of Connecticut ..., in an internet chat room says ..."
Over the years, my response to all of the posted opinions to ignore the casebook interpretation has always been consistently the same:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
While the caseplay may have vanished, the rules behind it are still in the rule book and there have been no relevant rule changes, or interpretation changes, to invalidate it.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Nov 15, 2023 at 06:27pm.
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