NCAAW rules question for tech during Ch game

[Nevadaref]

I need our experts on NCAAW rules for this as I don’t know the specifics of that book. I have a couple of questions about the technical foul charged late in the third quarter of the NCAAW championship game between LSU and Iowa.

1. “In a pool report, lead official Lisa Jones said the technical came when Clark didn't pass the ball to an official after the Hawkeyes had been given a delay-of-game warning for batting the ball away after a made basket earlier in the third quarter.”
My question: Is this the correct admin under NCAAW rules? NFHS is different. In NFHS, the warnings for delay go to the team and when a second warning is earned, that is also a team technical foul, not charged to any specific individual. Finally, failing to pass the ball to the nearest official following a stoppage is NOT one of the four team delay of game warnings under NFHS rules. That action is a straight technical foul to the player for delay of game.
So are NCAAW’s rules different or does this official who just worked an NCAA Final really not know the book correctly given her explanation provided above? (I certainly don’t know the NCAAW book, but I don’t work those contests. I can guarantee you that if I did, I would know it as well as the NFHS book.)

2. Second question has to do with the administration of the penalty for the technical foul. Did NCAAW revert to the way NFHS does it and scrap POI?
The sequence was a foul by an Iowa post player while an LSU opponent was shooting, this was then followed by a technical foul for another Iowa player throwing the ball away. NFHS admin: 2FTs for the fouled player, 2FTs by any LSU player, LSU throw-in at the division line. (This is what was done in the NCAAW game.) Is this correct admin or should it have been what NCAAM do? Which I believe is: 2FTs for any LSU player, the resume at the POI, which is 2FTs for the fouled LSU player with players from both teams occupying spots along the FT lane.

[SC Official]

I’m just amazed they allowed Mulkey to be on the court and gesture the entire game and did nothing about it.

[Raymond]

The action you described as a technical is listed under 10-12-3.k, which is under player / substitute technical fouls.

Penalty administration is the same as high school.

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[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Penalty administration is the same as high school.

Except for excessive TOs which is the ball to the offended team at POI; and all other admin Ts which are POI.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My question: Is this the correct admin under NCAAW rules? NFHS is different. In NFHS, the warnings for delay go to the team and when a second warning is earned, that is also a team technical foul, not charged to any specific individual.

In NCAAW -- one warning per delay item; a second violation of that specific delay is a T -- so some can be issued directly to players.

In FED, one warning that covers all (listed) delaying acts.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Except for excessive TOs which is the ball to the offended team at POI; and all other admin Ts which are POI.

I was referring specifically to the penalty administration that's listed under 10-12-3 for player/substitute technicals.

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[BhamGuy]

I think I know the answer to this question (I usually don't, though, which is why I ask). The rule cited was as follows below:

Rule 4, Section 9, Article 1F of the rulebook, which reads that a player can be assessed a foul for “attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown.”

My question:

Interfering with the ball after a goal clearly requires the player to attempt to gain an advantage (i.e., by slowing the other team down, I presume).

Does the 2nd part of that rule also require the player to attempt to gain an advantage (by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown?)

I don't think it does, but I saw a journalist on Twitter say that because she was not attempting to gain an advantage, a Technical should not have been called, even though Iowa had already been warned for a delay of game.

I wish the rule were broken down into two separate sentences to make is crystal clear, but I think the portion coming after the comma is independent of the "advantage attempt" requirement.

Are am I wrong? (Wouldn't be the first time....today).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BhamGuy

I think I know the answer to this question (I usually don't, though, which is why I ask). The rule cited was as follows below:

Rule 4, Section 9, Article 1F of the rulebook, which reads that a player can be assessed a foul for “attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown.”

My question:

Interfering with the ball after a goal clearly requires the player to attempt to gain an advantage (i.e., by slowing the other team down, I presume).

Does the 2nd part of that rule also require the player to attempt to gain an advantage (by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown?)

I don't think it does, but I saw a journalist on Twitter say that because she was not attempting to gain an advantage, a Technical should not have been called, even though Iowa had already been warned for a delay of game.

I wish the rule were broken down into two separate sentences to make is crystal clear, but I think the portion coming after the comma is independent of the "advantage attempt" requirement.

Are am I wrong? (Wouldn't be the first time....today).

No, the 2nd part does not require an advantage to be gained or attempted to be gained. It is for the act alone of making the ball unavailable to the official without regard to the effect.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No, the 2nd part does not require an advantage to be gained or attempted to be gained. It is for the act alone of making the ball unavailable to the official without regard to the effect.

While I'm not a college official, and I believe that the written rule can be better worded, for what I've learned from recent Forum posts, I agree. Purpose and intent is about delay, not advantage/disadvantage.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While I'm not a college official, and I believe that the written rule can be better worded, for what I've learned from recent Forum posts, I agree. Purpose and intent is about delay, not advantage/disadvantage.

I don't even think that element is about delay. The first half of the sentence is about delay. The latter is about gamesmanship.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I don't even think that element is about delay. The first half of the sentence is about delay. The latter is about gamesmanship.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NCAA-W Rule 4 Section 9 Delay
Art. 1. A delay is any action that impedes the progress or continuity of the game. Such actions include, but are not limited to:
a. Failure to supply scorers with data per Rule 3-4.1;
b. Consuming a full minute by not being ready when it is time to start either half or any overtime;
c. Delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly made live or by preventing continuous play, such as but not limited to, followers or bench personnel entering the playing court before player activity has been terminated. When the delay does not interfere with play, it shall be ignored, and play shall be continued or be resumed at the point of interruption;
d. Repeatedly delaying the game by preventing the ball from being promptly put into play, such as delaying the administration of a throw-in or free throw by engaging in a team huddle anywhere on the playing court;
e. Failure to have the court ready for play after the final horn to end any timeout;
f. Attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown; or
g. The opponents of the thrower-in having any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line.
Art. 2. One team warning shall be given for each of the delays in Rule 4-9.1.d through .g. Each warning shall be reported to the official scorer. Thereafter, a technical foul shall be assessed for the delay that has previously received a team warning.[/I]

NFHS 10-4- 5: A player must not: Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds.
c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure is in effect following a time-out or intermission.
d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10.

In both NCAA-W (not sure about NCAA-M) and NFHS, it's under the topic heading of "delay", no mention of "unsporting" (or gamesmanship) anywhere within the language of the rule.

In my high school games, besides a delay, I also consider it, more so, to be disrespectful.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In my high school games, besides a delay, I also consider it, more so, to be disrespectful.

NFHS 2-17-4: Officials’ General Duties: The officials must conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Prohibiting practice during a dead ball, except between halves.

Pet peeve of mine is the player who, seconds after the end of period horn sounds, launches a long distance three pointer that invariably clangs off the rim and deflects to a far corner of the gym. No way am I going to retrieve that ball. NFHS 2-17-4 lacks teeth in the form of a penalty (unless it's a dunk) but the delay rule certainly does apply here.

NFHS 10-4-5-B: A player must not: Delay the game by acts such as: Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Like I said before, while I have never charged a high school technical foul for such, I also have never ignored it, giving a stern warning every time it happens. "Do you know that I can charge you with a technical foul for that? Now please go and get me the ball."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Pet peeve of mine is the player who, seconds after the end of period horn sounds, launches a long distance three pointer that invariably clangs off the rim and deflects to a far corner of the gym. No way am I going to retrieve that ball ... the delay rule certainly does apply here.

NFHS 10-4-5-B: A player must not: Delay the game by acts such as: Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds.

Of course, nothing is ever easy. Nothing is ever perfectly cut and dry.

We're taught locally (as I believe are all IAABO boards) to not sound our whistle and the end of a period unless something unusual (act of shooting, etc.) happens.

Too bad, I'm still invoking NFHS 10-4-5-B if a player pisses me off by taking a "practice shot" after the horn.

Why? Purpose and intent.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Do you know that I can charge you with a technical foul for that? Now please go and get me the ball."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In both NCAA-W (not sure about NCAA-M) and NFHS, it's under the topic heading of "delay", no mention of "unsporting" (or gamesmanship) anywhere within the language of the rule.

In my high school games, besides a delay, I also consider it, more so, to be disrespectful.

Fair enough, but it is still not under a "delay of game" where a team gets a warning. These things stand on their own and cross into the sportsmanship realm as much as the actual delay. In this play, she had zero reason to bat the ball of the court into the the first row. She was trying to show the officials up and rolled the dice with it ....and lost.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Fair enough, but it is still not under a "delay of game" where a team gets a warning.

Fully agree for high school. No warning by rule (not on the delay warning list).

Disagree for college (W). See Article 2. Subarticle F (pass the ball to the nearest official) is on the delay warning list.

NCAA-W Rule 4 Section 9 Delay
Art. 1. A delay is any action that impedes the progress or continuity of the game. Such actions include, but are not limited to:
f. Attempting to gain an advantage by interfering with the ball after a goal or by failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official after a whistle is blown;
Art. 2. One team warning shall be given for each of the delays in Rule 4-9.1.d through .g.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

These things ... cross into the sportsmanship realm as much as the actual delay ... trying to show the officials up ...

Agree.

Something (besides a striped shirt) has to separate officials (as the only unbiased arbiters of the game on the court) from the other participants in the game (players and coaches).

Without being a bully, or a dictator, we have to show that we're "in charge".

Expecting to be treated with a certain degree of respect is one of those ways that we show this, and one of the ways that we expect to be treated with respect is by not having to chase down the ball after every whistle.