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Old Sun Mar 05, 2023, 07:39pm
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Oops: 6 players on court

Up 1, 4.7 seconds left.

https://www.si.com/college/2023/03/0...ayers-sun-belt
https://mobile.twitter.com/SInow/sta...85711076028418
https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/35779544

"While both teams took their time setting up for the inbound play, it became clear to the broadcast team, the crowd and to both teams that Old Dominion had six players on the court. The referees appeared to be the only ones who didn’t notice."
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Old Mon Mar 06, 2023, 08:35am
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I've only been up for an hour, and this is the second significant game administration error I've read about this morning...

In a Missouri high school playoff game Friday night, Cooter High School (Cooter, MO) @ Principia School (Town & Country, MO), two made free throws by Cooter were missed by the official scorer. On the video, you can see the scoreboard operator put up the points and a short period after, take them off the board. The Cooter coach protested, asked the officials to confirm the score and after a short conference, officials found a discrepancy between scorebooks that couldn't be resolved, declared the (incorrect) official book to be the actual score and moved on. Principia ended up winning the game in overtime.

After the game, the MSHSAA reviewed the materials and issued a statement:
they determined that a scoring error had occurred, but nothing could be done because the score was final when the referees left the floor.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...37498505065702

Not an ideal situation either.
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Old Mon Mar 06, 2023, 12:07pm
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High School ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmwking View Post
"While both teams took their time setting up for the inbound play, it became clear to the broadcast team, the crowd and to both teams that Old Dominion had six players on the court. The referees appeared to be the only ones who didn’t notice."
In my high school games:

NFHS 10.2.2 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is ruled. A6 properly reports and enters the game. A time-out request is granted to Team B. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

From the IAABO Sportorials November/December 2017 issue, article entitled Rules Interpretations and Clarifications from NFHS In-Person Meeting With Theresia Wynns, NFHS Basketball Rules Editor:

More than five players on the court not observed by officials: If Team A has more than five players on the court during a live ball and the officials do not realize it, should the officials charge Team A with a technical foul if the scorer notifies officials of the infraction during the next dead ball period? Answer: No. An on-court official must observe the excess number of players on the court during a live ball and a team having more than five players on the court during a live ball shall be penalized only if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

Participate? 10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5 reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul charged directly to the head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. The player is immediately removed from the game and Team B is awarded two free-throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)
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Old Mon Mar 06, 2023, 12:12pm
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College ...

I'm certainly not a college guy, but this is what I found on my hard drive from college guys who have posted on the Forum:

NCAA Mens Bulletin: In a recent game, six players participated in the game for one team. Several officials and administrators asked for clarification and we are releasing the following play situation:
SITUATION: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball is made live with five seconds remaining in the game. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling?
RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became alive (Rule 3-4.1.c). However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the court, which ends their jurisdiction and approves the score. The officials should award Team B two free throws and the game will continue with an overtime period if both free throws are successful (Rule 2-4.4, 5-7.7. and 10-2.6).

Further Comment: Rule 10-2.6 requires that the sixth player participate when the ball is alive. There is no time limit within which the officials have to recognize and penalize this technical foul. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize the infraction. A monitor may not be used to obtain such knowledge (Rule 10-2.6, 2-13.2 and 5-7.7).

Hopefully this clarification will assist officials with the understanding and application of these rules. Thank you for your attention to this information. At the very least, this should emphasis why officials must take their time, and do everything that they can possibly do, using good mechanics, to prevent situations like these from happening.


2021-22 and 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Rules Edition: R10 (Fouls and Penalties)-S12 (Technical Fouls)-A2 (Administrative Technical Fouls):
A2f: A team shall not have more than five players legally on the playing court to participate after the ball becomes live. PENALTY (Art. 2.f ): Penalized when the violation occurs after the ball becomes live. Two free throws awarded to the offended team, followed by a throw-in at the point of interruption. Administrative technical fouls do not count toward the team-foul total.


From the 2022-23 NCAA Women's Basketball Casebook: R10 (Fouls and Penalties), Approved Ruling 335: Team A has six players on the playing court when the ball becomes live with five seconds remaining in the game and Team A leading by two points. A1’s successful field goal attempt is in the air when the time expires ending the game. Immediately after the expiration of time and before the officials have left the playing court, one of the officials observes that Team A had six players on the court when the basket was scored. What is the correct ruling? RULING: The field goal shall count because A6 became a player when the ball became live. However, the game has not ended since the officials have not left the visual confines of the playing area and still have jurisdiction. The officials shall award Team B two free throws for the administrative technical foul and the game will continue with an overtime when both free throws are successful. This administrative technical foul does not count toward the team-foul total. The penalty for Rule 10-12.2.f applies only when the sixth player participates when the ball is live. There is no time limit within which the officials must recognize and penalize this infraction. However, the officials must see the violation occur or have personal knowledge that it did occur in order to penalize this infraction. Replay may not be used to obtain such knowledge. (Rules 10-12.2.f, 2-4.3, 11-2.1, 3-4.1.c and 5-7.6)
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Old Mon Mar 06, 2023, 01:52pm
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Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlasherZ View Post
In a Missouri high school playoff game Friday night, Cooter High School (Cooter, MO) @ Principia School (Town & Country, MO), two made free throws by Cooter were missed by the official scorer. On the video, you can see the scoreboard operator put up the points and a short period after, take them off the board. The Cooter coach protested, asked the officials to confirm the score and after a short conference, officials found a discrepancy between scorebooks that couldn't be resolved, declared the (incorrect) official book to be the actual score and moved on. Principia ended up winning the game in overtime. After the game, the MSHSAA reviewed the materials and issued a statement: they determined that a scoring error had occurred, but nothing could be done because the score was final when the referees left the floor.
2-11-11: The scorer must: Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time-out, and end of each quarter and extra period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy. If the mistake cannot be found, the referee must accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise. If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee must accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. The scorebook of the home team must be the official book, unless the referee rules otherwise. The official scorebook must remain at the scorer’s table throughout the game, including all intermissions.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Mon Mar 06, 2023, 02:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2-11-11: The scorer must: Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time-out, and end of each quarter and extra period, notifying the referee at once of any discrepancy. If the mistake cannot be found, the referee must accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise. If the discrepancy is in the score and the mistake is not resolved, the referee must accept the progressive team totals of the official scorebook. A bookkeeping mistake may be corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score. The scorebook of the home team must be the official book, unless the referee rules otherwise. The official scorebook must remain at the scorer’s table throughout the game, including all intermissions.
I'm not arguing the outcome - the rules are the rules, even if seemingly unjust in this case. Not meaning to hijack the original thread here, but this one caught my eye and I saw the two items within a short period of each other.

Additional information as I was reading this morning -- there were apparently 3 scorebooks involved, the neutral site's book, the home book, and the away book. The home team's book had two crossed-circles for the two free throws that were made, but they had been erased at the time the officials reviewed all three books (presumably the result of comparisons by scorekeepers, because the free throws are clearly on tape). Several observers noted the neutral site scoring official spending much of her time reviewing her phone during live play. It seems it was a poorly-run contest for a state quarterfinal championship game.
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Old Mon Mar 06, 2023, 02:35pm
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Neutral Site ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlasherZ View Post
Several observers noted the neutral site scoring official spending much of her time reviewing her phone during live play. It seems it was a poorly-run contest for a state quarterfinal championship game.
In the case of a neutral site state tournament game, which book is the official book: the home (higher seed, white uniform) scorebook, or the neutral site scorebook?

The answer probably varies from state to state, but the NFHS rule says the home team scorebook unless the referee rules otherwise.

Once had to give a stern warning to a home scorekeeper for wearing earphones during a game.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 07, 2023 at 09:29am.
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Old Tue Mar 07, 2023, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In the case of a neutral site state tournament game, which book is the official book: the home (higher seed, white uniform) scorebook, or the neutral site scorebook?

The answer probably varies from state to state, but the NFHS rule says the home team scorebook unless the referee rules otherwise.

Once had to give a stern warning to a home scorekeeper for wearing earphones during a game.
In Ohio tournaments, at least in my area of the state, there is a neutral official scorebook at the table in addition to the two teams. At all the tournament games I've attended, that scorer has wore stripes...even before the rule requiring them to do so.

I once kept the scorebook for girls/boys JV double header when I was a senior in high school. The referee looked at me, looked at the obviously more experienced visitor scorekeeper, promptly pointed to the visitor's book and said, "This will be the official book today." Didn't hurt my feelings at all.
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Old Thu Mar 09, 2023, 09:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlasherZ View Post
I'm not arguing the outcome - the rules are the rules, even if seemingly unjust in this case. Not meaning to hijack the original thread here, but this one caught my eye and I saw the two items within a short period of each other.

Additional information as I was reading this morning -- there were apparently 3 scorebooks involved, the neutral site's book, the home book, and the away book. The home team's book had two crossed-circles for the two free throws that were made, but they had been erased at the time the officials reviewed all three books (presumably the result of comparisons by scorekeepers, because the free throws are clearly on tape). Several observers noted the neutral site scoring official spending much of her time reviewing her phone during live play. It seems it was a poorly-run contest for a state quarterfinal championship game.
I have been following this a little. Apparently the discrepancy was not with the free throws, but a field goal later on that was initially credited on the scoreboard, but then removed. When that team brought it to the attention of the table and officials, both team books agreed the field goal was scored but the official book at the table did not have the field goal. The officials stuck with the official book and left the two points off.
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Old Thu Mar 09, 2023, 07:30pm
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Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
I have been following this a little. Apparently the discrepancy was not with the free throws, but a field goal later on that was initially credited on the scoreboard, but then removed. When that team brought it to the attention of the table and officials, both team books agreed the field goal was scored but the official book at the table did not have the field goal. The officials stuck with the official book and left the two points off.
There is a video that shows the score at 18-6, two free throws that result in the score being 18-8, and then the 2 points being removed (making it 18-6 again) less than 1 minute later (without any field goal scoring). I did see some statements about a field goal discrepancy in the book later in the game - but watching the video, it's clear the scoring error happened at the earlier mark.

Either way, a tough lesson learned for many individuals. Playoff officials, including table officials, need to be top-notch and not screwing around on their phones during live play.

https://www.wsiltv.com/news/missouri...7c15936c2.html
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