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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 01:48pm
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Backcourt violation?

Team A has the ball for a throw-in at mid-court. Player bounces the ball to her teammate, who is in the front court. The teammate bats the ball but does not control the ball, which then travels into the backcourt. The player then goes into the backcourt, retrieves and controls the ball while fully in the backcourt.

Violation?
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 02:07pm
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No. Been discussed here many times. And where the throw-in occurred has absolutely no bearing on the ruling.

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Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 02:44pm
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The only violation would be is if the teammate strikes the ball with a fist. See 9-4
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 11:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
No. Been discussed here many times. And where the throw-in occurred has absolutely no bearing on the ruling.
The backcourt rule doesn't specify that the ball must be in player control in the frontcourt before traveling to the backcourt. It only says team control. The ball is in team control on a throw-in and continues to be in team control throughout the scenario.

In the scenario, the ball was in team control in the frontcourt (because it was touched by or touched the player in the frontcourt), then it traveled to the backcourt, where it was first touched by the player who was last in the frontcourt.

I'm still not seeing how the scenario doesn't meet all the qualifications for backcourt violation.

Team control (check)
Ball touches or is touched by player in frontcourt (check)
Ball travels to backcourt (check)
Ball is touched by player or team that was last to touch in frontcourt (check)

Last edited by fiasco; Mon Jan 09, 2023 at 11:10pm.
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 11:15pm
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Then go ahead and incorrectly call a backcourt violation any time you have this situation. Even though you are completely wrong, it will be ok, because 50% or less of the officials you work with will know you are wrong. In the meantime, keep patting yourself on the back for being way smarter and knowledgeable then all the other officials that posted a response.
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 11:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
The backcourt rule doesn't specify that the ball must be in player control in the frontcourt before traveling to the backcourt. It only says team control. The ball is in team control on a throw-in and continues to be in team control throughout the scenario.

In the scenario, the ball was in team control in the frontcourt (because it was touched by or touched the player in the frontcourt), then it traveled to the backcourt, where it was first touched by the player who was last in the frontcourt.

I'm still not seeing how the scenario doesn't meet all the qualifications for backcourt violation.

Team control (check)
Ball touches or is touched by player in frontcourt (check)
Ball travels to backcourt (check)
Ball is touched by player or team that was last to touch in frontcourt (check)
Subsequent a throw-in, jump ball, free throw, or try for goal, you must first have player control on the court before any actions can happen to cause a back court violation.

IOW, you must have player control and then some action must occur that causes the ball to violate the back court provisions.

In theory, the throw-in is no different than a shot as far as when you can start looking for backcourt violation provisions.

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Last edited by Raymond; Mon Jan 09, 2023 at 11:22pm.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 11:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Subsequent a throw-in, jump ball, free throw, or try for goal, you must first have player control on the court before any actions can happen to cause a back court violation.

IOW, you must have player control and then some action must occur that causes the ball to violate the back court provisions.

In theory, the throw-in is no different than a shot as far as when you can start looking for backcourt violation provisions.
Rule cite?
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Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 11:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
Rule cite?
That is in the NFHS comments on the rules in a prior years book.

You need to know that the NFHS backcourt rule dates from when the NFHS had no team control during a throw-in. When that was added, it messed with several NFHS rules and the editors did not properly change the text to correct this. Instead the NFHS only published a couple of paragraphs stating to continue to call all violations as before and that the team control concept during a throw-in only pertained to fouls.

I will locate the relevant language from prior years and post it for you.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 09, 2023, 11:46pm
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Here you go.

POE #4 on page 70 of the 2014-15 NFHS Basketball Rules Book

4. Team Control Status During Throw-in. Team Control Status Inbounds - Since a 2011-12
rules change, team control exists during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at her/his
disposal. The change was made ONLY to eliminate the penalty of administering free throw(s)
when a teammate of the thrower-in commits a common foul during the throw-in. The change made
the penalty consistent with the penalty for other team control fouls. The penalty now is the
awarding of a throw-in to the opposing team at the spot out-of-bounds nearest to where the foul
occurred.
NOTE: Team control during a throw-in is not intended to be equated to player control status
inbounds which creates team control status inbounds. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds,
frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are not factors as there has yet to be
player control/team control status obtained inbounds.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2023, 09:48am
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Much appreciated! I had this sitch in a game last week, I didn't call a violation because I knew in my head there was no player control, but when I went to the rulebook, I was finding no justification for the no-call.

Seems very odd that NFHS wouldn't simply edit the backcourt rule to include player control on the throw-in.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2023, 11:18am
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Elements Of Backcourt ...

The four elements for having a backcourt violation are: there must be team control (and initial player control when coming from a throwin); the ball must have achieved frontcourt status; the team in team control must be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt; that same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2023, 11:20am
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From Endline ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... where the throw-in occurred has absolutely no bearing on the ruling.
Great point.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2023, 11:32am
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Fist ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
The only violation would be is if the teammate strikes the ball with a fist.
In a crowd?

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post479461

Quote:
Originally Posted by mick View Post
To me the reason for the fist rule is to reduce the potential for players swatting at balls or playing defense (in the vicinity of an opponent) with fists, which could certainly be intimidating and unsporting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
This is almost exactly what my interpreter said after I asked him about the this rule last year. I had called the violation after one player punched the ball to his teammate, while both were alone, with no defenders, in the backcourt. I won't make that call again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... called this exact situation a violation several years ago, was politely questioned by my partner after the game, and asked my local interpreter about it. I was told that the "fist" violation should only be called when the ball is punched in a crowd, i.e. the intent of the rule is to avoid injury.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jan 10, 2023 at 12:31pm.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2023, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Great point.
Yeah this is important, because I can imagine a scenario in which the ball is inbounded along the endline, multiple players bat the ball in their frontcourt, the ball travels to the backcourt, where it is retrieved by one of the same players and you're going to have a coach howling for a backcourt violation because they don't know the player control part and they're heavily influenced by where the ball was inbounded.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 10, 2023, 12:36pm
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Often Misunderstood ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco View Post
Yeah this is important, because I can imagine a scenario in which the ball is inbounded along the endline, multiple players bat the ball in their frontcourt, the ball travels to the backcourt, where it is retrieved by one of the same players and you're going to have a coach howling for a backcourt violation because they don't know the player control part and they're heavily influenced by where the ball was inbounded.
Agree.

During a throwin, even under a teams own basket, if the throwin is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; or after a missed field goal attempt, or a missed foul shot attempt, if the ball is deflected, tipped, or batted, by an offensive player in the frontcourt to an offensive player in the backcourt; these are not backcourt violations.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jan 10, 2023 at 02:05pm.
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