Dead Ball Contact

[Valley Man]

A1 scores a layup in transition .. A1 lands takes a step and more and is hit pretty hard into the wall by B1

Dead Ball Intentional Technical? Dead Ball Flagrant Technical (this was not flagrant)


10-4-7 "Intentionally or flagrantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul."

It's the and such contact is not a personal foul language that fouls everything up. Essentially, that means if it would be a personal foul but the ball is dead, ignore it, and that we should only penalize dead ball contact that rises to the level of an Intentional or Flagrant foul. In that case, the hard contact described originally has to be Flagrant (because the definition of Intentional foul states that excessive contact must be while the ball is live.)

[Raymond]

Technical foul is an option. We call dead ball contact as Technical Fouls all the time. No different because it follows a made basket.

[bob jenkins]

If the ball was live, this would be an intentional personal foul. Since the ball is dead, it's an intentional technical foul.

Use the "but not limited to" clause in the definition of intentional foul if the "while the ball is live" part bothers you.

[JRutledge]

All fouls are put into two categories. They are either a personal foul or a technical foul. When the ball is dead and a foul is called, it can only be a technical foul. You can have intentional or flagrant fouls take place during a dead ball or a live ball.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

10-4-7 "Intentionally or flagrantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul."

It's the and such contact is not a personal foul language that fouls everything up.

The "such contact is not a personal foul" means that it's not an airborne shooter returning to the floor after the ball passes through the basket. That's the only way to have a dead ball personal foul.

we should only penalize dead ball contact that rises to the level of an Intentional or Flagrant foul

I think that's correct.

In that case, the hard contact described originally has to be Flagrant (because the definition of Intentional foul states that excessive contact must be while the ball is live.)

I think that's incorrect. Excessive contact does not have to be during a live ball to be considered an Intentional Foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The "such contact is not a personal foul" means that it's not an airborne shooter returning to the floor after the ball passes through the basket. That's the only way to have a dead ball personal foul.

While the other ways are exceedingly improbable, that isn't the only way. The ball can become dead while the shooter is airborne in ways other than passing through the basket.

[rbruno]

I've had this happen as we all have. Tend to call a shooting foul which is probably incorrect as the airborne shooter has returned to the floor. I guess the question is how long does the ball remain dead after the ball goes through the hoop and exactly when does the contact occur. Could you make the case that after the ball fully goes through it is now at the disposal of the opposing team and is now "live"? if so the contact would be a common foul similar to when a jump shooter shoots and misses but is fouled after he/she returns to the floor. All I know is the explanation to the offended coach will be interesting.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rbruno

I guess the question is how long does the ball remain dead after the ball goes through the hoop and exactly when does the contact occur. Could you make the case that after the ball fully goes through it is now at the disposal of the opposing team and is now "live"? if so the contact would be a common foul similar to when a jump shooter shoots and misses but is fouled after he/she returns to the floor.

Wow! rbruno has nit-picking down to a science.

But it's a valid question.

When is the ball at the disposal?

When we start our count.

When do we start our count?

When the ball is at the disposal.

To quote United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it".

[Zoochy]

Originally Posted by rbruno

I've had this happen as we all have. Tend to call a shooting foul which is probably incorrect as the airborne shooter has returned to the floor. I guess the question is how long does the ball remain dead after the ball goes through the hoop and exactly when does the contact occur. Could you make the case that after the ball fully goes through it is now at the disposal of the opposing team and is now "live"? if so the contact would be a common foul similar to when a jump shooter shoots and misses but is fouled after he/she returns to the floor. All I know is the explanation to the offended coach will be interesting.

So, you are starting the 5 second count when the ball fully goes through the net?
I don't think so

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rbruno

I've had this happen as we all have. Tend to call a shooting foul which is probably incorrect as the airborne shooter has returned to the floor. I guess the question is how long does the ball remain dead after the ball goes through the hoop and exactly when does the contact occur. Could you make the case that after the ball fully goes through it is now at the disposal of the opposing team and is now "live"? if so the contact would be a common foul similar to when a jump shooter shoots and misses but is fouled after he/she returns to the floor. All I know is the explanation to the offended coach will be interesting.

All "At the disposal" means is that it is available for them to take it out of bounds and start the throw-in. When that happens, that is the only time we should start a count. Going throw the basket at that moment, is not it. Even if they catch it out of the net, I would still give them a chance to take the ball out of bounds. It does not mean they have to be, but give them a reasonable chance to take the ball out of bounds, then start your count. If they walk away from it and could have had time to do so, then start your count.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

All "At the disposal" means is that it is available for them to take it out of bounds and start the throw-in. When that happens, that is the only time we should start a count ... give them a reasonable chance to take the ball out of bounds, then start your count. If they walk away from it and could have had time to do so, then start your count.

Bingo.

Think about granting, or not granting, a request for a timeout to the team that just scored. If you're counting, don't grant. It you aren't counting, grant.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Going through the basket at that moment, is not it.

Originally Posted by Zoochy

.. you are starting the 5 second count when the ball fully goes through the net? I don't think so.

Nor do I.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While the other ways are exceedingly improbable, that isn't the only way. The ball can become dead while the shooter is airborne in ways other than passing through the basket.

Not arguing, just asking. Can you give me another example of when you would call a dead ball personal foul? I honestly can't think of one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Not arguing, just asking. Can you give me another example of when you would call a dead ball personal foul? I honestly can't think of one.

There cannot be one. All fouls are either in one category or the other. Personal fouls or Technical fouls. They cannot be both.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There cannot be one. All fouls are either in one category or the other. Personal fouls or Technical fouls. They cannot be both.

Peace

Well, I know that there's ONE way to have a dead ball personal foul. I think Camron is saying that there are other ways, as well.

My way is for a player to jump and dunk the ball (this creates the dead ball, but the player is still an airborne shooter), then crash into a legal defender before returning to the floor. This is a player control foul, NOT a dead ball technical.

I can't think of another way to have a personal foul during a dead ball. So I'm curious if Camron knows of one.