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Old Wed Mar 23, 2022, 03:38pm
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Dead ball technical- High School rules questioin

happened during a women's NCAA basketball playoff, but my question is more of a high school rules question.
A1 is about to throw the ball in from the sidelines. The official has not handed the ball to A1 (dead ball). player A2 makes a cut to the ball when she is blocked by B2. The official administering the throw- in, raises his fist for a foul. A2 continues and stumbles and lands a forearm into player B3 jaw (not intentional but a solid hit). The crew huddles and calls a technical (1) on B2 and ignores the second foul. B2 shoots 2 free throws and gets the ball at half court. I understand a dead ball technical, but I don't think the second foul (technical) should have been ignored. If it was called would it be simultaneous technical or each administered separately.
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Stew in VA
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2022, 04:17pm
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Sounds like the first contact caused inadvertent contact. It is certainly not simultaneous. One happened first then resulted in another action. I am not inclined to call a foul on the second one if all that happened when a player stumbles into another.

Honestly, without seeing this, all of this is speculation. But certainly by definition not simultaneous by rule. They did not happen at the same time based on your discription.

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Old Wed Mar 23, 2022, 06:21pm
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Under NFHS rules contact during a dead ball which is not by or on an airborne shooter is ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant.

Therefore, a common blocking foul would be ignored by rule in this situation. Just have a word with the players to check that everyone is fine and then administer the throw-in.


4-19-1 NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is incidental unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2022, 06:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Under NFHS rules contact during a dead ball which is not by or on an airborne shooter is ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant.

Therefore, a common blocking foul would be ignored by rule in this situation. Just have a word with the players to check that everyone is fine and then administer the throw-in.


4-19-1 NOTE: Contact after the ball has become dead is incidental unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter.

I agree...this is a big nothing. Play on.
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2022, 11:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewcall View Post
happened during a women's NCAA basketball playoff, but my question is more of a high school rules question.
A1 is about to throw the ball in from the sidelines. The official has not handed the ball to A1 (dead ball). player A2 makes a cut to the ball when she is blocked by B2. The official administering the throw- in, raises his fist for a foul. A2 continues and stumbles and lands a forearm into player B3 jaw (not intentional but a solid hit). The crew huddles and calls a technical (1) on B2 and ignores the second foul. B2 shoots 2 free throws and gets the ball at half court. I understand a dead ball technical, but I don't think the second foul (technical) should have been ignored. If it was called would it be simultaneous technical or each administered separately.
thanks
Stew in VA
In your play, it seems that A2 did not do anything that could rise to the level of an intentional or flagrant foul. Thus, A2's actions are rightly ignored by the crew.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 06:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewcall View Post
happened during a women's NCAA basketball playoff, but my question is more of a high school rules question.
A1 is about to throw the ball in from the sidelines. The official has not handed the ball to A1 (dead ball). player A2 makes a cut to the ball when she is blocked by B2. The official administering the throw- in, raises his fist for a foul. A2 continues and stumbles and lands a forearm into player B3 jaw (not intentional but a solid hit). The crew huddles and calls a technical (1) on B2 and ignores the second foul. B2 shoots 2 free throws and gets the ball at half court. I understand a dead ball technical, but I don't think the second foul (technical) should have been ignored. If it was called would it be simultaneous technical or each administered separately.
thanks
Stew in VA
I think you are NOT asking whether either (or both) should be called, but what to do if they are both called (in a similar play)

IF the second contact rose to the level of a Intentional Foul (NCAAW) or a T (FED) then:

NCAAW: The fouls would offset and we'd resume POI

FED: It's a little hard to judge from the words, but I would tend to NOT view this as simultaneous, but rather retaliatory (not a rule book term), so I'd penalize both. Shoot the FTs in the order the fouls occurred and give the ball to the last offended team at the division line for a throw-in
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 08:22am
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Can you please tell us what game it was so we can possibly pull up the play?
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 10:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Can you please tell us what game it was so we can possibly pull up the play?
I wish I could remember the game I was watching, but you good folks answered my question. Yes I too would have just told the teams to "cut it out" before administering the throw-in, but the crew did not. It was a "bang-bang" play, but not simultaneous.
So the answer in High school---2 separate fouls administered in the order that they occurred. The fact that the ball was not handed (bounced) to the player made the play and the call interesting
Stew in Va
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 10:45am
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Similar Situation ...

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1047027

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Had something similar a few years ago, but the hold (an arm grab) was before I had handed the ball to the inbounder to start a period. Surprised me and I sounded my whistle. Ended up calling it a dead ball intentional technical foul. Not my finest hour. Should have just gone inadvertent whistle, told the player to, "Knock it off", and moved on.
https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1041911

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I got caught off guard this week. Not my finest hour.

I'm the referee. Before throwin to start third period, after my period starting whistle, there's a surprise (not the good kind), B2 grabs and holds A2 by the arm, right in front of me. Easy call. I instinctively sound my whistle, fist in the air, and only then realize that I still have the ball (not yet at the disposal of A1).

As I take a step toward the table, I only then realize that this is a dead ball foul and should be reported as a technical foul. As I take a second step toward the table, I only then realize that as a dead ball contact foul it must be either intentional or flagrant. I report it as an intentional technical foul (even though I probably wouldn't call it intentional if it had occurred a few seconds later after the ball was at the disposal of A1). Team B coach politely questioned the technical aspect (free throws by any opposing player) that I was able to explain because the ball was dead.

Two free throws by any player on Team A, and then the ball. Only then do I realize that the throwin is now no longer an alternating possession throwin but a result of the technical foul, so I tell the table to not switch the arrow.

I was pretty sure about the penalties, so I didn't bother to discus it with my partner (in hindsight, I wish I had, he would have probably talked me out of "making the easy look difficult").

In hindsight, after sounding my whistle, fist in the air, I probably should have just yelled at B2 to cut it out (admitting to myself that the contact was probably not intentional), called it an inadvertent whistle, and played on with the alternating possession throwin to start the third period.


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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 24, 2022 at 02:03pm.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 02:24pm
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For The Good Of The Cause ...

Pushing the envelope for the good of the cause.

4-19-3-B: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to: Contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play.

With the official holding the ball, is there an actual play occurring?
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 02:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Pushing the envelope for the good of the cause.

4-19-3-B: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to: Contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play.

With the official holding the ball, is there an actual play occurring?
I don't understand your question?


"include, but are not limited to"
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 02:48pm
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Is It A Stretch ???

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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't understand your question?
Agree. Sorry, just thinking, and spit-balling, out loud.

During the time period before a throwin, while the official still has the ball in his hands before disposal, can a "simple" hold by a defender in any way be considered to be contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play, and thus, in any way be considered to be an intentional foul? The defender is clearly not involved with a play, because there is no play occurring at the time of the contact.

By "simple" hold I mean that the defender doesn't grab a jersey, push from behind, or bear hug the offensive player.

How about if one pushes the "not limited to" aspect of the definition?

When I picture various types of intentional fouls, I don't picture this as being one, but by rule ... dead ball contact ... not involved with a play ... yada, yada, yada?

I got away with this in my non-consequential play above. Was able to bamboozle a young, inexperienced coach with "rule language". Still left a bad taste in my mouth. I would have hated to have called this in a "big" consequential play and have had to explain it to my assigner. My assigner is not one to be bamboozled and distracted by shiny object "rule language".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 24, 2022 at 04:33pm.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 02:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. Sorry, just thinking, and spit-balling, out loud.



During the time period before a throwin, while the official still has the ball in his hands before disposal, can a "simple" hold by a defender in any way be considered to be contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play, and thus, in any way be considered to be an intentional foul? How about if one pushes the "not limited to" aspect of the definition?



By "simple" hold I mean that the defender doesn't grab a jersey, push from behind, or bear hug the offensive player.
Read this somewhere.

Quote:
...told the player to, "Knock it off", and moved on...
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 03:11pm
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Words Of The Wise ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Read this somewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Should have just gone inadvertent whistle, told the player to, "Knock it off", and moved on.
Sounds like a wise man.

Probably handsome as well.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 24, 2022 at 04:34pm.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2022, 05:55pm
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Here's an NCAAW video on I and DQ fouls, fwiw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H39tXru2zBU
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