Michigan State v Purdue

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

OK OK OK..... enough of the history of NFHS rules
What is the NCAA-M procedure if the player is OOB when they touch the inbounds pass?
Is this a THROW-IN violation and the ball goes back to the original spot? Or is this a player violation and the Throw-in spot is where the OOB player touched the ball? Or does NCAA-M go to a preassigned location for this type of OOB violation?

One way to help think about this scenario is to imagine if the touch were by either A or B.

If B3 were to touch the throw-in while being OOB, would you give the ball to A or B? Of course, it would be A's ball. Since you're giving the all to team A, that means the violation was on B1. Where did B3 violate? Where B3 touched the ball.

Now, if you were to replace B3 with A3, shouldn't the result be the same....at the spot of the violation? And that would be where A3 touches the ball (while OOB).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If B3 were to touch the throw-in while being OOB, would you give the ball to A or B?

Back in the 1980's, in a high school game, it would be B's ball back at the original throwin spot, and, of course, Coach A always went bonkers. The "left-over stench" of this old rule is the reason why this situation seems more confusing than it should be. Observed one of our best, very experienced, grizzled officials (outstanding real game knowledge and a great rules guy), after the rule was changed, recently bring the ball back to the original throwin spot (for this very exact situation) in a state tournament quarterfinal game. Thank God he gave the ball to the "right" team, just the wrong spot. Nobody spotted it except me.

I have always stated that for experienced veterans, it's not the rules that are a problem, it's the rule changes that are a problem.

Now what's the new team control foul signal? And how do we now signal a held ball?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have always stated that for experienced veterans, it's not the rules that are a problem, it's the rule changes that are a problem.

This is my favorite, moving into the lane to rebound a free throw. Got to be a world record for basketball back-and-forth rule changes.

1970-71: Hits.
1981: Releases.
1993: Hits.
1996-97: Releases.
1997-98: Hits.
2014-15: Releases.

Can't remember what we did back in high school (late 1960's)?

Surprisingly, don't know why, it was very easy to adjust to each time it changed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... moving into the lane to rebound a free throw ... world record for basketball back-and-forth rule changes ... don't know why, it was very easy to adjust to each time it changed.

Maybe because we have dozens of free throws every game?

How frequently do we have a kick during an alternating possession throwin?

I've only had one since the alternating possession arrow was "invented", also coming after the most recent rule change. I called it wrong (based on the old rule) but my rookie partner, fresh from training classes, set me straight.

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

How frequently do we have a jumper illegally catch the jump ball?

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A’s basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

Just posting these two changed, but rare, rules helps me to remember them. Thanks for playing along. Hope I helped some other grizzled old-timers.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Maybe because we have dozens of free throws every game?

How frequently do we have a kick during an alternating possession throwin?

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

I remember concepts, not each individual rule. Throw-ins do not end if a foul or defensive violation occurs during the throw-in, so arrow does not change.

Unless POI is being enforced, throw-ins after fouls and violations are not AP throw-ins.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I remember concepts, not each individual rule. Throw-ins do not end if a foul or defensive violation occurs during the throw-in, so arrow does not change. Unless POI is being enforced, throw-ins after fouls and violations are not AP throw-ins.

But the interpretations of said concepts weren't always what they are today.

In past times, a kick during a AP throwin led to the arrow being switched (it was a touch, an illegal touch, but nevertheless a touch that, by definition, ended the throwin), and a jumper illegally catching a jump ball led to his team losing the ball and losing the arrow (it was a possession, an illegal possession, but nevertheless a possession (holding the ball), arrow to other team; same as if nonjumper legally caught the ball, held it, and immediately traveled).

While the concepts (throwin ends, holding possession) may have stayed the same, these two interpretations (above) have changed, and are now incorrect.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.42.5 SITUATION: Team A is awarded an alternating-possession throw-in. A1’s throw-in pass is illegally kicked by B2. RULING: As a result of B2’s kicking violation, Team A is awarded a new throw-in at the designated spot nearest to where the kicking violation (illegal touching) occurred. Since the alternating-possession throw-in had not been contacted legally, the throw-in has not ended and therefore, the arrow remains with Team A for the next alternating-possession throw-in. COMMENT: The kicking violation ends the alternating-possession throw-in and as a result, a non-alternating-possession throw-in is administered. When the ball is legally touched on the subsequent throw-in following the kicking violation, the arrow shall not be changed and shall remain with Team A. (6-4-5)

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A’s basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

[Raymond]

"6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A’s basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)"

This is not an AP throw-in, it's a throw-in for a violation. The arrow is SET to Team A in response to Team B having initial possession of the ball. So, the arrow is not SWITCHED b/c it was never set in the first place.

It's only confusing if one concentrates on what it used to be instead of memorizing what it is.

A lot of things change over the years. At some point there is no excuse for not knowing the current rules. We don't get to consult with the forum in the middle of a game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

I have always stated that for experienced veterans, it's not the rules that are a problem, it's the rule changes that are a problem...

It doesn't take much effort to keep up with rule changes. Far less reading than reading the entire rule book.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

It doesn't take much effort to keep up with rule changes. Far less reading than reading the entire rule book.

Easy to learn, hard to remember in the heat (for me) of the game.

It's more like a "mental block" for me, and I have to concentrate real hard to successfully get through it; changes that should, as for most officials, just "slip off my tongue".

Like a jumper catching a jump ball, or a kick during an alternating possession throwin. I just can't get these changes into a permanent, easily accessible part of my brain, it's always a real struggle (what's the current rule) to concentrate and come up with the correct, current ruling. These are the two "biggies" for me, maybe the only ones. Probably because one could go several seasons in a row without seeing and calling them.

I've had other veterans tell me this, but they don't seem to have this problem to the extreme that I have this problem.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... a jumper catching a jump ball ...

I actually have had some success remembering this change by trying to remember what it's not.

It's not, "Lose the ball, lose the arrow", as it was in ancient times.

The human mind, at least my human mind, works in mysterious ways.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I actually have had some success remembering this change by trying to remember what it's not.

It's not, "Lose the ball, lose the arrow", as it was in ancient times.

The human mind, at least my human mind, works in mysterious ways.

Maybe if you didn't try to keep an encyclopedia on the history of every rule in your brain, you'd have room to remember to new stuff that's pertinent now.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Maybe if you didn't try to keep an encyclopedia on the history of every rule in your brain, you'd have room to remember to new stuff that's pertinent now.

I don't try, and make no effort to do so. As far as I know, there is no delete function in my brain. Wish that there was, for basketball reasons, and reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with basketball.

My 1975 home phone number just popped into my brain after being forgotten for years (three number prefix of a different number reminded me of it). Don't need it. Don't want it, but it's there. Also have my 1964 home phone number, had it for eleven years, in two different houses, it never left my brain. Don't need it. Don't want it, but it's there.

Yet I only know the phone numbers of one of my three adult children. Have to check the phone number list (I don't use my cell phone for calls made from home) every time I call the other two. Go figure.