Shot Clocks

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The NCAA rule states that a team "shall not be in continuous control of a ball in the backcourt for 10 seconds". This means that the 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds. This is different than NFHS rules, where it starts on player control inbounds.

Yet, the wording for the NFHS rule is essentially identical.

NFHS: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

The wording you cite is not the reason that the NFHS and NCAA different in their rulings.

[ilyazhito]

Team control starts with the ball being at the team's disposal for a throw-in, so they are considered in control for all purposes, not just to prevent the other team from shooting bonus free throws on a player/team control foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Team control starts with the ball being at the team's disposal for a throw-in, so they are considered in control for all purposes, not just to prevent the other team from shooting bonus free throws on a player/team control foul.

So if the throw-in is tipped by the offense in the FC and goes to the BC and the offense recovers, it's a violation?

We know that's not true.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The NCAA rule states that a team "shall not be in continuous control of a ball in the backcourt for 10 seconds". This means that the 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds.

ilyazhito: So the NCAA player control (that leads to team control) rule must include holding, dribbling, or touching?

Or is there some type of exception (player/team control, as defined by rule, not necessary) for ten seconds?

I know that the NCAA 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds, just questioning the rule basis, especially the phrase "continuous control", in other words, how does the NCAA achieve this "work around?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know that the NCAA 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds,

Just to clarify -- it starts on the touch after a throw-in. It starts on possession after a jump ball, a rebound, a turnover. (there might be other categories -- I'm doing this without my book)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Just to clarify -- it starts on the touch after a throw-in. It starts on possession after a jump ball, a rebound, a turnover.

Thanks.

... Because there is player/team control after disposal on a throwin and not so for a jump ball, a rebound, a turnover, etc.?

Does the NCAA characterize this throwin player/team control to be used only for the purpose of team control fouls (no free throws) during the throwin, and not for anything else (backcourt) as the NFHS does?

Or rather, does the NCAA allow this throwin player/team control to be used for ten second purposes (or any purpose except backcourt) when the inbounds pass goes to a player in the backcourt, making a touch essentially the same as a possession (holding, dribbling) in this situation?

[ilyazhito]

On a jump ball and a rebound, there is no team control. This is because no team control is possible while the ball is dead (before a jump ball), or during a try (which has to.precede a rebound). Before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose. This is why loose ball fouls are a separate category under NCAAM rules.

Once the ball becomes live on a throw-in, the team throwing in the ball has control until the ball becomes dead again, assuming possession is not lost in the interim (via a turnover, try, foul, violation, or jump ball situation [not all situations that trigger the possession arrow are caused by a held ball]). The team control that happens when the ball is at the disposal of a team is the same as team control when the ball is live in bounds. The touch inbounds signifies that the ball is inbounds, action proceeds, and therefore game and shot clocks will start.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

On a jump ball and a rebound, there is no team control. This is because no team control is possible while the ball is dead (before a jump ball), or during a try (which has to.precede a rebound). Before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose. This is why loose ball fouls are a separate category under NCAAM rules.

Once the ball becomes live on a throw-in, the team throwing in the ball has control until the ball becomes dead again, assuming possession is not lost in the interim (via a turnover, try, foul, violation, or jump ball situation [not all situations that trigger the possession arrow are caused by a held ball]). The team control that happens when the ball is at the disposal of a team is the same as team control when the ball is live in bounds. The touch inbounds signifies that the ball is inbounds, action proceeds, and therefore game and shot clocks will start.

Are you talking NCAA or NFHS?

[ilyazhito]

This refers to NCAA rules. NFHS with a shot clock is different, because there team control on a throw-in exists only for the purpose of fouls. There is also no loose ball foul under NFHS rules. However, my points about team control on a jump ball and free throw remain the same.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

On a jump ball and a rebound, there is no team control. This is because no team control is possible while the ball is dead (before a jump ball), or during a try (which has to.precede a rebound). Before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose. This is why loose ball fouls are a separate category under NCAAM rules.

Where did you get the statement that "before a turnover, there is no team control if the ball is loose"?

There is team control, but there is an exception to the team control foul in regards to shooting free throws if it's a loose ball foul.

Rule 4-15-2.a.
3. Loose-ball foul. A loose-ball foul is a common foul that is committed by a player when any of the conditions in Rule 4-24 occur. A loose-ball foul on an offensive player is also a team-control foul.

Rule 10-1-18 Penalty
c. Bonus free throw for: Each common foul committed by a team, beginning with that team’s seventh foul during the half, provided that the first attempt is successful. This includes team-control fouls which occur during a loose ball such as a fumble, deflection, or release of the ball for a try. This does not include team-control fouls when the ball is being passed between teammates and there is no deflection.


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[bob jenkins]

That "loose ball foul" stuff is NCAAM only. NCAAW mirrors NFHS in this regard.

[ilyazhito]

It is weird that NCAAM chooses to keep the NFHS definition of team control (loose ball fouls by A are team control fouls), yet has teams shoot free throws on those fouls if in the bonus, which is NBA practice. It is just as strange as NFHS declaring that there is team control on throw-ins, but only for the purpose of fouls by A.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

It is weird that NCAAM chooses to keep the NFHS definition of team control ...

ilyazhito: Thanks for trying to explain, but I'm still confused.

Are you saying that in NCAA once an inbounder has been handed/bounced the ball, player/team control begins (just like NFHS), and this team control continues with the inbounds pass, continuing to an inbounds touch (no possession, holding, dribbling, needed, unlike the NFHS), only ending with the other team gaining team control, steal, violation, foul, timeout, etc. (like the NFHS), and that this team control covers all other rule aspects (ten seconds, back court, team control fouls, shot clock, etc., unlike the NFHS)?

[ilyazhito]

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds. Team control does not change unless possession changes (there is a steal, a player turns the ball over, or a try is attempted) or the ball becomes dead. NCAA team control, unlike NFHS team control, does not exist only for the purpose of fouls. Because NCAA team control starts with a team being in disposal of the ball for a throw-in, and continues with the inbounds pass, the 10-second count and shot clock start together when the ball is touched inbounds.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds. Team control does not change unless possession changes (there is a steal, a player turns the ball over, or a try is attempted) or the ball becomes dead. NCAA team control, unlike NFHS team control, does not exist only for the purpose of fouls. Because NCAA team control starts with a team being in disposal of the ball for a throw-in, and continues with the inbounds pass, the 10-second count and shot clock start together when the ball is touched inbounds.

Is any of that different from NFHS WHEN the shot clock is used?

from nfhs.org:
OFFICIALS' GENERAL DUTIES

Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). Use a silent, visible 10-second count when there is no shot clock visible.

5. Start the shot clock when:
A player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in; or
A team initially gains control after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal; or
Control of a loose ball is gained after a jump ball; or
Unsuccessful try for goal.