Shot Clocks

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I know more about rocket surgery than I do NCAA rules, but isn't the ten second rule different in NCAA compared to NFHS? In NCAA, doesn't the ten second count start on an inbounds touch?

You've asked/stated this quite a few times. Do a search and you'll find where it's been answered quite a few times.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't quite see the difference here.

NCAA (if I'm correct): Actual ten second rule (inbounds touch) matches how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

NFHS: Actual ten second rule (inbounds possession) does not match how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NCAA (if I'm correct): Actual ten second rule (inbounds touch) matches how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

NFHS: Actual ten second rule (inbounds possession) does not match how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1043933

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NCAA (if I'm correct): Actual ten second rule (inbounds touch) matches how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

NFHS: Actual ten second rule (inbounds possession) does not match how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

If the NFHS rule is to (as shown on nfhs.org) "Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). " then the practical effect is the same, at least for possessions that start with a full shot clock.

There are some differences (at least with NCAAW) when the ball gets knocked OOB by the defense, or there's a held ball (with the arrow favoring the offense) or the offense calls a TO. And, ilya is *technically* correct that if the 30-second shot clock shows, say, 25 AND the team is entitled to a new 10-seconds, the whistle shouldn't be blown until the shotclock shows14. Interps might make what is technically correct still wrong by rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NCAA (if I'm correct): Actual ten second rule (inbounds touch) matches how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

NFHS: Actual ten second rule (inbounds possession) does not match how to use the shot clock (start on inbounds touch) for "counting" the ten second rule.

All the more reason I want no parts of a shot clock in HS. NFHS can't even write the rule to be consistent with its own rules, or at least note an exception, combined with HS officials who'll be making up their own interpretations.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the NFHS rule is to (as shown on nfhs.org) "Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). " then the practical effect is the same, at least for possessions that start with a full shot clock.

There are some differences (at least with NCAAW) when the ball gets knocked OOB by the defense, or there's a held ball (with the arrow favoring the offense) or the offense calls a TO. And, ilya is *technically* correct that if the 30-second shot clock shows, say, 25 AND the team is entitled to a new 10-seconds, the whistle shouldn't be blown until the shotclock shows14. Interps might make what is technically correct still wrong by rule.

I don't even think the NCAA-Men's rule and case books even address what we should do when we start a new 10-second under 30 seconds. It happens enough that it should be addressed.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

... then the practical effect is the same, at least for possessions that start with a full shot clock.

You think so?

Tell that to the Team A head coach.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

State high school championship final game. Shot clock used. Team B 65, Team A 64. Fourth period. Fifteen seconds left in game. Both teams come out of a timeout. Team A, with no timeouts remaining, inbounds in their backcourt. Inbounder A1 passes to A2, who muffs (shot clock legally start on inbounds touch) the ball away, but eventuality, after two seconds pass (with deflections but no control by both teams), secures control of the ball by holding it and the begins to dribble. Facing strong defensive pressure in his backcourt, A2 is still in his backcourt when the shot clock is at 25 seconds (game clock at five seconds) and the trail official calls a ten second violation on Team A. Team A head coach politely argues that Team A only had "control" of the ball for approximately eight seconds (proven after game on videotape) in the backcourt, quoting 9-8 and 4-2, and should not have had the ten second violation called, depriving Team A of a chance to win the game.

I just realized that the shot clock would be turned off. But one should still be able get the point.

Originally Posted by Raymond

NFHS can't even write the rule to be consistent with its own rules ...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You think so?

Yes. There was TC during the throw-in.

And, yes, I know the general thought is that this is used only for TC fouls, but since a shot clock wasn't in effect when that statement was made and is (in some states) in effect now, consider it also in effect for 10-second violations -- but not for BC violations.

I agree that if the shotclock is more widely used, the rules should be clarified

[Zoochy]

BillyMac,
Once again you have hijacked a thread and made it your personal agenda.

Going back to the original topic... Lets set the game clock to 1:00.0 and reset the shot clock. Start them both at the same time and see how they perform. Do a quick stop. Game clock reads 59.7 and shot clock still at 30, then there is a delay with the shot clock as stated by bob jenkins. If shot clock reads 29, then there is not a delay. Thus when shot clock reads '0', there is actually up to .9 left before a violation occurs.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I just realized that the shot clock would be turned off.

Better extreme example.

State high school championship final game. Thirty-five second shot clock used. Per NFHS rules, officials use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count. Team B 65, Team A 64. Fourth period. Thirty-six seconds left in game. Both teams come out of a timeout after made basket. Thirty-five seconds on shot clock. Team A, with no timeouts remaining, inbounds in their backcourt. Inbounder A1 passes to A2, in the backcourt, who muffs (shot clock legally starts on inbounds touch) the ball away, but eventually, after two seconds pass (with deflections but no control by either team), secures control of the ball by holding it (game clock legally starts on inbounds possession) and then begins to dribble. Facing strong defensive pressure in his backcourt, A2 is still in his backcourt when the shot clock is at 25 seconds and the trail official calls (only based on the shot clock) a ten second violation on Team A. Team A head coach politely argues that Team A only had "control" of the ball for eight seconds (game clock now at 28 seconds) in the backcourt, quoting 9-8 and 4-2, and should not have had the ten second violation called.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree that if the shot clock is more widely used, the rules should be clarified

Agree. Hopefully, like Raymond, I'll be retired by then.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

... the rule states that it is a violation to be in continuous possession of a ball in a team's on backcourt for more than 10 seconds ...

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And yet the NFHS has the shot clock start on an inbounds touch, not an inbounds possession?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

As does NCAA

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't quite see the difference here.

Originally Posted by Zoochy

BillyMac, Once again you have hijacked a thread and made it your personal agenda.

Sorry Zoochy. ilyazhito's post struck a nerve, and I didn't expect to have to follow up with bob jenkins.

I did try to search for earlier threads on (game) clocks rounding up, or rounding down, but failed in my attempt.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Sorry Zoochy.

While I'm still apologetic, it was probably a good thing that I replied to ilyazhito's possibly confusing post. He cited a NFHS rule (it is a violation to be in continuous possession of a ball in a team's on backcourt for more than 10 seconds) in a thread about NCAA (NCAA ten second rule is not continuous possession) shot clocks. While I may have turned the thread a little, I may have saved it from going completely sideways.

Hope to see (figuratively) you tomorrow Zoochy.

[ilyazhito]

The NCAA rule states that a team "shall not be in continuous control of a ball in the backcourt for 10 seconds". This means that the 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds. This is different than NFHS rules, where it starts on player control inbounds.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The NCAA rule states that a team "shall not be in continuous control of a ball in the backcourt for 10 seconds". This means that the 10-second count starts on the touch inbounds. This is different than NFHS rules, where it starts on player control inbounds.

So does NCAA team control start on the touch?

Or does NCAA team control start at disposal to inbounder (who is neither in the frontcourt nor in the backcourt) and then carry over to a player inbounds (seems odd, kind of what bob jenkins was talking about earlier) ?

In other words, what is NCAA definition of team control and/or player control?

[bob jenkins]

https://www.ncaapublications.com/sea...ketball%20Rule