Shot Clocks

[ilyazhito]

It depends on the rules your state uses. MD still uses the NFHS visible 10-second count for boys, but DC uses the shot clock to administer the 10-second count. Private schools in my area, at least for boys, also use the shot clock to administer the 10-second count.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds. Team control does not change unless possession changes (there is a steal, a player turns the ball over, or a try is attempted) or the ball becomes dead. NCAA team control, unlike NFHS team control, does not exist only for the purpose of fouls. Because NCAA team control starts with a team being in disposal of the ball for a throw-in, and continues with the inbounds pass, the 10-second count and shot clock start together when the ball is touched inbounds.

You still must have player control somewhere on the court before you can have any type of back court violation. So even though there's team control, and a touch in the back court then touch in the front court and then a touch in the back court or any combination of touches that brings the ball from the front court to the back court, there's still no back court violation.

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[ilyazhito]

Are you talking about the violation known as "over and back", or the 10-second violation? You could have a 10-second violation without player control, but not an "over-and-back" violation.

AFAIK, a player with frontcourt status has to possess the ball, and then either take it into the backcourt, or pass the ball.to a player with backcourt status to trigger that violation.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Are you talking about the violation known as "over and back", or the 10-second violation? You could have a 10-second violation without player control, but not an "over-and-back" violation.

AFAIK, a player with frontcourt status has to possess the ball, and then either take it into the backcourt, or pass the ball.to a player with backcourt status to trigger that violation.

The time related violation is referred to as "10 Second Backcourt" violation in the rule book.

"Backcourt" violation is the over and back you are referring to.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

In NCAA, team control begins when the ball is at the disposal of the team and continues when the ball is touched inbounds.

ilyazhito: So the NCAA team control throw-in rule is much different from the NFHS team control throw-in rule?

If so, I now "get it".

NFHS 2017-18 Basketball Points of Emphasis
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

[ilyazhito]

Yes, the NCAA version of team control starts with the ball being at the disposal of the team for the throw-in, and ends on a change of possession or dead ball. That said, for a backcourt (not a 10-second) violation, player control is required. This is because the ball must first obtain frontcourt status and then achieve backcourt status.

Usually that happens when a player crosses the division line and either retreats back over the division line, or else passes to someone who has not yet crossed the division line.

For a 10-second violation, team control, but not player control is required. A common example is when there is a pass with the shot clock at 20 seconds, and the ball is still airborne. That is a 10-second violation. A held ball awarded to the offense with 20 seconds is another example of a 10-second violation without player control, because the offense would be entitled to possession in this scenario, but could not legally put the ball into play without committing a violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

...the NCAA version of team control starts with the ball being at the disposal of the team for the throw-in, and ends on a change of possession or dead ball. That said, for a backcourt (not a 10-second) violation, player control is required.

Thank you ilyazhito. I appreciate your patience with me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

ilyazhito: So the NCAA team control throw-in rule is much different from the NFHS team control throw-in rule?

If so, I now "get it".

NFHS 2017-18 Basketball Points of Emphasis
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

I think yoiu meant is NOT much different -- because it isn't.

And, you can 't use a 2017-18 POE to apply to a shot clock situation because NFHS didn't have a shot-clock in 2017-18. Obviously that POE would need to be adjusted to reflect that TC DOES apply to 10-second violations when the shot clock is being used.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think you meant is NOT much different -- because it isn't.

Now I'm confused again.

NFHS: TC starts on possession inbounds (after a temporary/limited initial disposal throwin TC only for foul purposes).

NCAA: TC starts on initial disposal TC and continues until it ends (foul, violation, steal, etc.).

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Obviously that POE would need to be adjusted to reflect that TC DOES apply to 10-second violations when the shot clock is being used.

Agree 100%. By individual states, or by the NFHS?

[bob jenkins]

[QUOTE=BillyMac;1047171]Now I'm confused again.

NFHS: TC starts on possession inbounds (after a temporary/limited initial disposal throwin TC only for foul purposes).

NCAA: TC starts on initial disposal TC and continues until it ends (foul, violation, steal, etc.).

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Obviously that POE would need to be adjusted to reflect that TC DOES apply to 10-second violations when the shot clock is being used.

Agree 100%. By individual states, or by the NFHS?

Well, since it's an NFHS rule and an NFHS statement on what TC applies to ....

And, for practical purposes, the definitions and uses of TC are the same in NFHS (when the shot clock is used) and NCAA for TC fouls, BC violations, 10-second violations, 3-second violations, etc.

The difference is NFHS with a shot clock and NFHS without a shot clock.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The difference in NFHS with a shot clock and NFHS without a shot clock.

Agree. It's got to be fixed.

Fix the ten second rule (touch), or fix the shot clock rule (possession).

If the NFHS doesn't fix it, the states will, and then we'll have a hodgepodge of rules.