Block or Charge? Non-torso contact

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While I have never pulled the pin on a technical foul, nor have I observed the pin being pulled, I have orally warned a few players over the years, "You know it's technical foul for faking a foul, better be careful".

I think this is a good use of the tool we're provided. Being able to warn with the technical, rather than ever applying it. I think if you've done everything you can do and there comes a time to make that decision, then you're backed up by the rules....but using it more as a "scare-tactic" so to speak, may serve better in the long run and be a more useful process.

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We have all seen videos and have officiated games where B1 has a LGP against A1 and A1 breaches B1's Cylinder of Verticality. The contact looks minimal and yet B1 falls backwards even falling to the Floor sometimes. Many people describe B1 as "flopping". Who knows for sure if B1 over acted from A1's contact? Whether or not B1 is guilty or not of overacting he/she cannot be charged with any type of Foul (Personal or Technical) because B1 was in a LGP when A1 breached B1's Cylinder of Verticality

MTD, Sr.

This was more along the lines of my thread OP.
How much shoulder contact from OIC constitutes a charge call if you can't call block? I think it's tough to say on paper (forum) and more about your perception of advantage via contact on the court throughout the game.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by tnolan

These types of plays can sometimes be difficult to judge, IMHO.
Possible legal defender and the offensive player changes direction via a euro-step and makes contact with the defender outside the torso, normally with the shoulder. Defender falls to the ground and the offensive player flails away and puts up an attempt/shot.
What do you have?

I try not to read too deep into the rule book and there are so many different philosophies on block/charges that come into this mix.
Referee the defense
What did the defender do wrong?
Players don't have to "take" a charge
Offensive initiated contact (OIC)
Torso contact for charges, shoulder contact blocks

And obviously the defense can move (not forward) as long as they're essentially not undercutting the shooters start for the attempt. But what about the offense? They have the onus to avoid contact by stopping or changing direction, in order to try to get their body past the torso of the defender. So, does the attempt to change direction and OIC into the shoulder of a legal defender change this call in either way?

Seems as though this contact ends up in block calls the majority of the time, at most/all levels. I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this call, these theories, and our never ending battle for call consistency across the world/nation/state/chapter.

1) Has B1 Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's and FIBA) LGP? If YES, go to (2) and if NO, go to (4).

2) Was the contact between A1 and B1 within B1's Cylinder of Verticality? If yes, to (3).

3) PF by A1 against B1.

4) PF by B1 against A1.

It does not get any easier than that.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Sometimes you just have to referee. Not all plays are alike or have the same response. You will never find a "one size fits all" application.

Peace

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It does not get any easier than that.

MTD, Sr.

On paper, the Browns were the best team in the AFC North!

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Sometimes you just have to referee. Not all plays are alike or have the same response. You will never find a "one size fits all" application.

Peace

Through all my conversations and conflicting views on the subject, I've ended up exactly there.
I think sometimes we run out of things to discuss and begin to overthink and over analyze things, when it's just best to keep it simple most nights.

[Pantherdreams]

I will leave out any discussion of flop/faking fouled/selling calls as that is a whole can of words that I've got some strong feelings about - beyond you shouldn't call a block because a kid falls and you don't like it. You call a block if its a blocking foul, a charge if its a charging foul.

Focusing on the initial post.

Issue with a lot of games and officials tends to be on driving contact where 1 or both players is displaced/knocked down etc (visibly disrupted) officials often seem to feel like for game control reasons they need a whistle.

IMO if a player has legal guarding position but the offense changes position and contact happens in a way that the defense is not clearly disadvantaged or displaced its not a charge. If the offense is initiating the contact and the defense is legal but the only person impacted is the flailing/off balance offense I'm good with no calls.

Full disclosure I am much more comfortable with multiple bodies on the ground and no air in whistle than a lot of my colleagues.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by tnolan

On paper, the Browns were the best team in the AFC North!



Through all my conversations and conflicting views on the subject, I've ended up exactly there.
I think sometimes we run out of things to discuss and begin to overthink and over analyze things, when it's just best to keep it simple most nights.

I am a life long Browns fan; considerably longer than anyone else in this Forum. And NO! The Browns, on paper, were not the best team in the AFC North: The Bengals and Steelers were and they made the playoffs, not the Browns. I will not critize Mayfield's (or any Brown's player's effort) on the field but he is just a better than average CFL quarterback. We have not had a playoff caliber QB since Brian Sipe and Berner Kosar (Boardman Twp. native; large suburban towship on the south side of Youngstown and alumus, along with my sister of the University of Miami).

MTD, Sr.


P.S. That last time that the Browns had a good draft was in 2014 when Sonny Weaver, Jr. was General Manager.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We have not had a playoff caliber QB since Brian Sipe and Berner Kosar ...

Johnny Manziel?

[thedewed]

interesting, here is what I would add that hasn't been said.

just because you have contact between a ball handler and a defender and somebody ends up on the ground doesn't necessarily mean you have a call. the old saying of basically 'if you have players on the court, you better have a whistle' isn't appropriate. So for example, a defender have the right to a spot on the floor, and isn't under obligation to move out of the way if a dribbler is coming at him. at the same time, if the ball handler gets his head and shoulders past the defender, you really shouldn't call a foul on him either. so don't call anything.

I got hired into collegiate officiating by being questioned about such a non-call by the group of senior officials in the dead ball huddle of a camp game, explaining why I didn't have a call despite the old wives tale mentioned above, was reported to the head of officials because a female referee was involved as one of the clinicians and it was construed as me being disrespectful with her in attendance (apparently I don't discriminate), and when I got in front of the head, he was impressed with my explanation and balls to lay it out in front of the older officials. best thing that ever happened to me.

secondly, I think if a defender 'guesses' right in terms of a drivers change of direction in a Euro step move, etc, and takes the blow, he's going to likely get the benefit of the doubt from me and a charge call. Seems like I see quite a few plays take place where that isn't the case.

Charges taken by defenders, particularly secondary, are great team defense and one of the aspects that make the game so great, help on defense. the game wouldn't be the same without it. you have drivers these days that are as shifty and quick as running backs and creating a lot of the contact themselves. the rules of the game are great in that they reward position and penalize displacement, most prominently in this b/c play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Johnny Manziel?

Don't even think about getting me started on Johnny Maziel!

MTD, Sr.


P.S. That last time that the Browns had a good draft was in 2014 when Sonny Weaver, Jr. was General Manager.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am a life long Browns fan; considerably longer than anyone else in this Forum. And NO! The Browns, on paper, were not the best team in the AFC North: The Bengals and Steelers were and they made the playoffs, not the Browns. I will not critize Mayfield's (or any Brown's player's effort) on the field but he is just a better than average CFL quarterback. We have not had a playoff caliber QB since Brian Sipe and Berner Kosar (Boardman Twp. native; large suburban towship on the south side of Youngstown and alumus, along with my sister of the University of Miami).

MTD, Sr.


P.S. That last time that the Browns had a good draft was in 2014 when Sonny Weaver, Jr. was General Manager.

I'm dropping the red flag on that Mark Birthdate?

[JRutledge]

Isn't Mark Padgett still on the site? Might have the other Mark beat.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I'm dropping the red flag on that Mark Birthdate?

Nov. 09, 1951

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Do you agree with me that the Browns last great draft was in 2014 when Sonny Weaver, Jr. was the General Manager?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Isn't Mark Padgett still on the site? Might have the other Mark beat.

Peace

Jeff:

I am pretty sure that Mark was born before me, but I think that he is no longer with us. I know that he had been living in a nursing home after he had a heart attack.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Jeff:

I am pretty sure that Mark was born before me, but I think that he is no longer with us. I know that he had been living in a nursing home after he had a heart attack.

MTD, Sr.

Is there any way we can confirm this? I did not want to assume that was the case.

Peace