inciting the crowd

[thedewed]

see last play of KU OU last night wit 5 seconds to go Braun hits a 3 to go up 3, and immediately turns and yells profanity undoubtedly at OU fans that have been in his ear on the wing, pretty obvious to all. rulebook says action that incites the crowd is a T...do you call one in that situation? In hs do you? curious what you all would do. and if not, what additional act would you need to see?

[Raymond]

I believe purpose and intent of the inciting to crowd phrasing in the technical foul rule refers to inciting the crowd to be unsporting towards officials. IOW, reacting to an official's call and then trying to get the crowd to join in.

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[thedewed]

thanks for reply, but the casbook example has othing to do with the officials or a call. admittedly I have a 2019 casebook but I cant imagine it has changed

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by thedewed

In hs do you?

NFHS 2021-22 Basketball Points Of Emphasis Unsporting Conduct
The committee is concerned about inappropriate conduct by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials, and spectators. Each group needs to view the activity in light of it being educationally based and not accept conduct that would not be tolerated in other educational settings. Therefore, each group has the responsibility to demonstrate civility and citizenship … Players are not permitted to “let off steam” by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse …

That's the Points Of Emphasis. Interpret it as you see fit. When in Rome ...

[Raymond]

I don't see the question as being about profanity, because profanity can always be penalized.

A technical foul in the situation described by the OP could either be for profanity or unsporting behavior. I don't see it being for inciting the crowd.





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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't see it being for inciting the crowd.

Nor do I.

Some words, depending the volume, tone, and direction, are almost automatic no-nos.

For an F-bomb loud enough to be heard by the fans, I would only consider passing for the profanity if yelled as instinctual response to a severe injury.

That being said, F-bombs seem to have become socially acceptable. On television, in movies, on social media, (Twitter, Instagram, etc.), said by both ladies and gentlemen.

The first and only time I said it front of my parents, I got my mouth washed out with soap.

It's not a regular part of my vocabulary, but as times change, social mores change, but I'm an old fart, and I hate the word.

Living in a state that worships former UCONN coach and potty-mouthed Jim Calhoun, some words become overused, people become desensitized to them, and the words become less effective in getting one's attention.

[JRutledge]

This was a rather large crowd. If you can hear a player easily say a specific profanity, good for you. Doubt it could be heard. Also right or wrong, college are adults. These are not kids saying this stuff. You better have more context than someone using a bad word. You are going to hear a lot of them in college games if you work enough of them and this is a major matchup with a lot of fans that most of us do not have at our games.

In a high school setting, everything is context. Where am I? Who assigns? What is the culture of the place I am at? A simple "I heard you, knock it off" works rather well. And if you are not cursing directly at me or an opponent, then that is all I will say.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by thedewed

see last play of KU OU last night wit 5 seconds to go Braun hits a 3 to go up 3, and immediately turns and yells profanity undoubtedly at OU fans that have been in his ear on the wing, pretty obvious to all. rulebook says action that incites the crowd is a T...do you call one in that situation? In hs do you? curious what you all would do. and if not, what additional act would you need to see?

You won't last very long in college basketball if you call a T on that player especially in this situation, in a large arena where no one who isn't standing right next to the guy can hear what he says. If anything, the people I work for would ask why I didn't have game management address the behavior of the fans since they obviously taunted the guy and caused him to react like that.

99.9% of the time when a player gets into a spat with a fan, the fan was the one who started it. I tell game management I'm not interested in having a player go into the stands (which is an automatic F2 in NCAA), so they had best address the person's behavior if he wants to stick around.

(And no, I would not whack this player in a high school game either. I would tell him not to engage with the crowd again and I will deal with the fans with game management.)

[Raymond]

There have been many occasions where I have told players not to let the fans get to them and don't engage them and that if the fans say something completely out of line I'll address it.

But I definitely agree with SC Official. In fact, I will say 100% of the time it'ss the fans who are saying something first.

The other night I was working a D3 game with limited attendance because of COVID protocols and I told a trio of kids to stop throwing F-bombs at the players.

Last night I worked at a Bible College where a group of fans was doing everything they could to get under the opponents' skin. They weren't saying anything vulgar or profane, but they weren't being nice either. At one point I was tempted to ask them if they felt like their behavior was Christ-like...LOL

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[sdoebler]

I had a similar situation on Tuesday after the crowd was saying some stupid things to a kid. He made a 3 motioned to the crowd and said something. At the next dead ball I said here is a good piece of advice I got from a mentor:

"Don't take criticism from anyone you wouldn't take advice from"

Would you let the crowd tell you how to play basketball? Then don't listen to their crap and let me take care of them. He thanked me and we had no issues.

Game management stood next to a few bad apples and there were no more comments of that nature.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There have been many occasions where I have told players not to let the fans get to them and don't engage them and that if the fans say something completely out of line I'll address it.

But I definitely agree with SC Official. In fact, I will say 100% of the time it'ss the fans who are saying something first.

The other night I was working a D3 game with limited attendance because of COVID protocols and I told a trio of kids to stop throwing F-bombs at the players.

Last night I worked at a Bible College where a group of fans was doing everything they could to get under the opponents' skin. They weren't saying anything vulgar or profane, but they weren't being nice either. At one point I was tempted to ask them if they felt like their behavior was Christ-like...LOL
LOL. Isn't this always the case?
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I actually spoke to two college teams at a scrimmage in October about rules/POEs and I concluded the "presentation" with some reminders about sportsmanship. I told the players that nothing good will come out of engaging with a spectator (the same thing we tell referees) and going into the stands will end badly one way or another. I said something along the lines of "Fans don't have the right to say whatever they want just because they paid for a ticket. If a fan is pissing you off or says something that's completely out of line and I don't hear it, you come to me and I will make sure their behavior is addressed. If you deal with the problem yourself it will not end well."

I had one of the teams early in the season and some idiot on the second row was going after one of their players pretty hard and he was obviously getting pissed off. I had the fan removed and the coach thanked me for dealing with it before the player dealt with it himself (just like I had mentioned in the scrimmage).

[thumpferee]

Good topic!
Great advice being given here!