Free throw Situation

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The term "bench personnel" could absolutely include cheerleaders (see the pic of the rulebook app below).

And I wasn't saying you were wrong, but for game management purposes (something that is emphasized plenty in those interpretations/cases) re-administering the free throw is a fine option. Maybe it's not crystal clear in the book, but support for that can certainly be found.

And how about we be a tad more respectful?

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Wow! Sometimes what you post seems to come from a new official, but you have to have at least ten years of experience. Sometimes you fail to grasp the most basic elements of a situation.

So I’ll write this out for you clearly and as respectfully as possible.
1. Bench personnel are those who are permitted to be in the team bench area for the duration of the game. If the bench area doesn’t have enough space, then they will be located as close as possible to the team bench, such as in the first row of the stands.
2. While members of the school cheer squad and band are clearly affiliated with the school and team, they are not part of the team. Have you ever seen the cheerleaders or a trumpet player go into the team huddle during a time-out? Have you ever seen the cheer squad sit in the team bench area during the game? I haven’t. Let’s be realistic. It’s not going to happen.
3. You keep insisting that awarding a replacement FT is a fine option in this scenario. That is frustrating to me because it is completely wrong. Here’s why. As officials we have to administer the rules as written. What you are calling game management, I call making up your own ruling. The NFHS has admonished officials against personal interpretations on several occasions.
There are only two situations in which a replacement FT can be awarded: a) a player of the non-shooting team violates, b) a member of the opposing team commits distraction. I am quite firm in stating that a cheerleader running out onto the court fits neither of those cases. You seem to contend that the cheerleader is a member of the opposing team. I don’t believe that you will find much agreement with you on that. I’ll also point you to NFHS rule 1-20 in which spirit participants are classified as non-playing personnel and their location is clearly listed.

4. So how do we properly administer the rules for this situation? Is there something in the book or do we need to invoke the referee’s elastic clause (2-3)?
We can only invoke 2-3 when the rules do not cover a situation and we have NFHS rule 2-8-1 Note which contains “The officials may rule fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game.” Obviously, such a foul would be a technical foul by definition because the offender is a non-player and only players may commit personal fouls. Do we have any other rule for penalizing spectators or people who aren’t part of either team? Can the officials call violations on them? Nope, I don’t find that anywhere. So we only have two choices: we can halt play and have game administration deal with the improper behavior or we can call a technical foul. We have to use our judgment as to when each is appropriate. What we cannot do is completely make up another remedy on our own and impose that, such as awarding a replacement FT.

Let me pose a scenario for you. Team B is trailing by one point with under five seconds remaining and has the ball in its backcourt. B3 beats his defender and receives a long pass so that he now has a clear path for an easy layup. Cheerleader A steps onto the court and kicks the ball away just as B3 was finishing his final dribble before attempting a try. There is two seconds remaining on the clock when the cheerleader contacts the ball.
If the covering official decides to award Team B two points for the easy basket which B3 was about to score, would you support that?
If the covering official charges a team technical foul after which Team B only makes one FT and then loses in OT, would you believe that a fair ruling was not made?

[BryanV21]

Have you ever seen the cheer squad sit in the team bench area during the game? I haven’t. Let’s be realistic. It’s not going to happen.

I've never seen statisticians sit in the bench area, neither, yet they are specifically listed as bench personnel in the rule book (4-34-2).

The officials may rule fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game.” Obviously, such a foul would be a technical foul by definition because the offender is a non-player and only players may commit personal fouls.

Again, I never said it was wrong to give a tech, only agreeing that in that situation... For game management purposes... Giving a tech may not be the right thing to do. And the case book even says that handing out a tech in some game management situations would not be ideal.

So should we do nothing? Probably not as there was clearly a situation that should be rectified, especially since the only person that can say they were or weren't distracted may very well lie in order to get what they want to try and win. Bringing back the old adage "that's why we make the big bucks".

And the rule book states in 2-3 "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules", which grants us the ability to make rulings in situations like this that are not clearly laid out by either the rule book or the case book.

Game management is one of the most important things we do as officials, so you're damn right I'm going to keep that in mind when making decisions like in the OP. I'm very sorry you don't like it, and it frustrates you oh so much, but I assure you my assignors will appreciate me re-administering that FT rather than handing out a tech and very much pissing off a coach and his AD, or doing nothing and pissing off the other team, and both having pretty good reasons for feeling the way they do.

We're not robots, no matter how much some fans wish we were. And when it comes to some situations they'll be glad we aren't.


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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I've never seen statisticians sit in the bench area, neither, yet they are specifically listed as bench personnel in the rule book (4-34-2).



Again, I never said it was wrong to give a tech, only agreeing that in that situation... For game management purposes... Giving a tech may not be the right thing to do. And the case book even says that handing out a tech in some game management situations would not be ideal.

So should we do nothing? Probably not as there was clearly a situation that should be rectified, especially since the only person that can say they were or weren't distracted may very well lie in order to get what they want to try and win. Bringing back the old adage "that's why we make the big bucks".

And the rule book states in 2-3 "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules", which grants us the ability to make rulings in situations like this that are not clearly laid out by either the rule book or the case book.

Game management is one of the most important things we do as officials, so you're damn right I'm going to keep that in mind when making decisions like in the OP. I'm very sorry you don't like it, and it frustrates you oh so much, but I assure you my assignors will appreciate me re-administering that FT rather than handing out a tech and very much pissing off a coach and his AD, or doing nothing and pissing off the other team, and both having pretty good reasons for feeling the way they do.

We're not robots, no matter how much some fans wish we were. And when it comes to some situations they'll be glad we aren't.


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Obviously, I’m not going to change your mind and if your assignors and the other people who matter in your area, perhaps coaches, ADs, and folks who work for the state office, are all okay with you making up your own way of handling a problem, then so be it and carry on. However, that is a sad situation.

For anyone else reading this forum who prefers to administer this situation properly, I’ll again write that attempting to use 2-3 is obviously wrong because the NFHS rules do provide for a way to deal with situations in which team supporters interfere with the game. How officials are to deal with this is spelled out in the note to 2-8-1. Why BryanV21 chooses to ignore this and instead go his own route is baffling. Why he continues to contend that this situation isn’t covered by the NFHS rules after the exact passage covering such has been posted for him is inane. Perhaps he is afraid to assess the proper penalty and charge a technical foul.

So for the final time, the ONLY penalty which an official may impose due to interference of a spectator or supporter is a technical foul. The official does not have the ability to award points, take points away, remove time from the clock, restore time to the clock, take possession away, award extra FT attempts, or any other strange remedy that might seem fair.

Real officials adhere to the real rules. What BryanV21 is attempting to pass off as game management is just doing things his own way because he feels that such will encounter the least amount of resistance. I don’t believe that he understands what game management actually means. It certainly isn’t making up a resolution that splits the difference in an attempt to make both sides happy. The referee is not expected to be King Solomon.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Obviously, I’m not going to change your mind and if your assignors and the other people who matter in your area, perhaps coaches, ADs, and folks who work for the state office, are all okay with you making up your own way of handling a problem, then so be it and carry on. However, that is a sad situation.

For anyone else reading this forum who prefers to administer this situation properly, I’ll again write that attempting to use 2-3 is obviously wrong because the NFHS rules do provide for a way to deal with situations in which team supporters interfere with the game. How officials are to deal with this is spelled out in the note to 2-8-1. Why BryanV21 chooses to ignore this and instead go his own route is baffling. Why he continues to contend that this situation isn’t covered by the NFHS rules after the exact passage covering such has been posted for him is inane. Perhaps he is afraid to assess the proper penalty and charge a technical foul.

So for the final time, the ONLY penalty which an official may impose due to interference of a spectator or supporter is a technical foul. The official does not have the ability to award points, take points away, remove time from the clock, restore time to the clock, take possession away, award extra FT attempts, or any other strange remedy that might seem fair.

Real officials adhere to the real rules. What BryanV21 is attempting to pass off as game management is just doing things his own way because he feels that such will encounter the least amount of resistance. I don’t believe that he understands what game management actually means. It certainly isn’t making up a resolution that splits the difference in an attempt to make both sides happy. The referee is not expected to be King Solomon.

It's bullshit replies like this why I stopped coming here for a while. Some people can't have conversations without the personal attacks.

So I'll leave you on your high horse.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

It's bullshit replies like this why I stopped coming here for a while. Some people can't have conversations without the personal attacks.

So I'll leave you on your high horse.

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Nevada is right, you're not. Take it how you want, but continuing to insist on dong it the wrong way by considering cheerleaders bench personnel in order to give a replacement FT is just silly. He's given you the rules covering this. Citing 2-3 and "Game Management" is a effectively translated as "I don't know the rules so I'll just make something up and stick to it.

[bob jenkins]

I'll only add that I don't see evidence in the OP that the cheerleader's actions affected the shooter.

" B team cheerleaders enter the floor at division line as A1 is in his shooting motion"

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

This below situation was brought up last night at our association meeting. The conclusion was the crew handled this ok.

"From my JV boys game this week (2 man): B1 fouls A1 during a shot right at the 1st QTR buzzer, my whistle and the horn are damn near on top of each other; my partner and I talk, clear the lanes for 2FTs by A1 with 0:00 on clock; I report to the table and share info with coaches; partner administers FTs but B team cheerleaders enter the floor at division line as A1 is in his shooting motion; he misses the shot, cheerleaders are then removed; he makes the 2nd shot and heads back to his bench; my partner and I talk again and agree we need to provide A1 with another FT as first FT took place with illegal personnel on the floor; we talk to both coaches and A1 makes the FT… "

There is a distinction between non-participants simply being on the floor or those non-participants being on the floor and distracting the shooter.

IMO, that discussion needs to occur and have a decision before the 2nd free throw. Once you moved on to the 2nd free throw, I see no reason to go backwards in time.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I started reading the comments but I stopped when NevadaRef made a comment that rivaled, in length, some of my comments of olde. That said...

1a) Yes, Cheerleaders allowed on the Court but only during specfic times that are defined in the Rules: a) 60-Second TOs and b) Intermissions (Halftime and between the QTs and OT Periods.

1b) I always pre-gamed with the Squads from both Teams as to when they can be on the Court.

2) From the description of the Situation, the 1st QT was not over until A1's 2nd FTA was completed. Which means that no Cheerleaders (Team A or Team B) should not have been on the Court, which leads to...

3a) I know that it was a Two-Person Crew, but what was the non-Reporting Official doing while his/her Partner was reporting the Foul?

3b) I will readily admit that Cheerleaders will not understand the nuances of Item (1a) but Team B's Cheerleaders were already at the Division Line when A1 started his Shooting Motion meaning that Team B's Cheerleaders were already moving onto the Court before the Ball was placed at A1's Disposal for his 1st FTA which means that A1's 1st FTA should have been shut down before it ever started and the Cheerleaders removed at that point.

4) I will admit that each Official in a Two-Person Crew 17% more duties than a Three-Person Crew has to during FTs which makes it is imperative that the FT Process is not be rushed. Taking and extra five seconds during the process will increase the chances of a Third World Play will NOT happening.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

.. FT Process not be rushed. Taking and extra five seconds during the process will increase the chances of a Third World Play will NOT happening.

Ah, a voice of reason. Is that really you Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?