Choosing The Right Camp

Love2ref4Ever · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2000, 03:00pm

I am a 11 year basketball official,And I have attended 3 basketball camps.All of these camps were in a different state from where I live. The information I received from this paticular camp was worth more than the air fare I paid to attend the camp.After returning home from camp,I am allways asked the same question "Why do you go to another state to go to camp when those asigners and supervisors can't help you back in your state" I need some feedback from other officials,I believe I am doing the right thing going to this camp,I would like to know if there are any other officals faced with the same dilema.

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2000, 03:08pm

What kind of camps are these that you are going to. Are they D1 camps or just camps for learning. A D1 official told me once, "that you should go to a camp not to learn but to get hired." I do not know about where you are, but my state requires us to go to a camp to keep our licence at the HS level. So there are camps all the time during the summer and fall to fufill that requirement. Really there is no need to go out side of the state, unless you want to get hired by a D1 conference. There are even many Junior College camps you can attend here. So it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish by going to one.

Quote:

Originally posted by Love2ref4Ever
I am a 11 year basketball official,And I have attended 3 basketball camps.All of these camps were in a different state from where I live. The information I received from this paticular camp was worth more than the air fare I paid to attend the camp.After returning home from camp,I am allways asked the same question "Why do you go to another state to go to camp when those asigners and supervisors can't help you back in your state" I need some feedback from other officials,I believe I am doing the right thing going to this camp,I would like to know if there are any other officals faced with the same dilema.

bsilliman · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2000, 10:50pm

That is the problem with young referees today. They expect to move up too quickly without obtaining adequate training and experience at lower level games.
Once-upon-a-time camps were for learning new techniques from experienced college level instructors.
As an 11 year official, three camps is probably a good number for you to have attended. After a camp you should take 1-3 years to perfect what you have learned before going to another one, otherwise you are overwhelmed with all of these different opinions.
To go out of your state is a 'good' idea as you can see how other parts of the country may interprep rules and also see other methods in the use of mechanics.
You may be at a crossroads in your career where you need to decide what your ultimate goal is and look to attend a camp to get hired. But do not be in too much of a hurry, just keep working hard every game and you be will be rewarded.

JRutledge · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2000, 12:00am

Can I ask what you are talking about? You lost me on this one? If you go to a D1 camp, you think that they are there to learn, bull####. They are there to get an opportunity to get hired. Yes, you can learn some things, but camps like that are not for just learning, they are job interviews. Now I have a few D1 officials tell me that. And if you go and do not do a good job, the evaluators will keep that in mind. So my point is, if you go to a camp of that caliber, you best be prepared for reality, and the reality is that you might not be as good as you think you are.

BTW, the officials that made that statement, has only been officiating as long as I have 5 or 6 years. And he is a D1 official. Listening to your logic, he should not even be on the court. Something to think about.

Quote:

Originally posted by bsilliman
That is the problem with young referees today. They expect to move up too quickly without obtaining adequate training and experience at lower level games.
Once-upon-a-time camps were for learning new techniques from experienced college level instructors.
As an 11 year official, three camps is probably a good number for you to have attended. After a camp you should take 1-3 years to perfect what you have learned before going to another one, otherwise you are overwhelmed with all of these different opinions.
To go out of your state is a 'good' idea as you can see how other parts of the country may interprep rules and also see other methods in the use of mechanics.
You may be at a crossroads in your career where you need to decide what your ultimate goal is and look to attend a camp to get hired. But do not be in too much of a hurry, just keep working hard every game and you be will be rewarded.

bsilliman · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2000, 01:29pm

Just my point. Your friend is an exception working D1 with only 5-6 years of experience; and I congratulate him for that.
However, for most people attendance at camps in the first 10 years of officiating is to learn, not be seen by D1 schedulers.
Hope this clarifys my point.
Have a great season.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2000, 03:19pm

Just because he is the exception does not mean that it cannot be done. I think we do a disservice to younger officials by telling wait until so many years before you move up. The evaluators are not telling officials that for the most part. You are going to be judged on much more than years of experience. You will be judged on your appearance (weight, uniform) and Mechanics and the way you control a game. These are just as much of a factor as how long you have been officiating. Teddy Valentine did his first D1 basketball game before he did his first varsity game. Now tell me he was not qualified. Some are just more gifted than others. Just cause you have been officiating for 10 years does not mean that you are more experienced than someone that has officiated for 4 years. That official might have more experience at the higher levels than someone that has been officiating for 10 years. What if you only do 20 games a year and have officiated for 10 years. While the 4 year official does 60 games a year. Now, who has the most experience? There is nothing wrong with putting your expectations high, the higher the expectations, the better you might do. But that is just my opinion.

Quote:

Originally posted by bsilliman
Just my point. Your friend is an exception working D1 with only 5-6 years of experience; and I congratulate him for that.
However, for most people attendance at camps in the first 10 years of officiating is to learn, not be seen by D1 schedulers.
Hope this clarifys my point.
Have a great season.

Tim Roden · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2000, 03:29pm

J,
I don't know about Valintine, but if he came into the NCAA at the same time David Hall did, then the system is a lot different then then it is now. In those days, it was all in who knew you then tryout camps. If an influentual official thought you were ready then they gave you a shot. Today, you have to jump through a lot more hoops.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2000, 05:55pm

Yeah, you are correct, but the hoops are going to the camp and getting looked at. If the evaluators feel that you are good enough, then they will hire you, it is that simple. If you are talking about college, guys and gals get fired every year for some reason or another. So there are always some openings at the beginning of the year. And that is what the camps are for. And the officials that have to the Big 10 or Big 12 camps for example, usually have to go every year or to a place that the evaluators of those camps are attending. And just because you have made it once, does not mean you will stay there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Roden
J,
I don't know about Valintine, but if he came into the NCAA at the same time David Hall did, then the system is a lot different then then it is now. In those days, it was all in who knew you then tryout camps. If an influentual official thought you were ready then they gave you a shot. Today, you have to jump through a lot more hoops.

bsilliman · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 07, 2000, 01:36pm

You mentioned David Hall.
Well, a couple of years ago Referee Magazine did an exclusive on him and his emphasis on how he got to the bigtime was who he knew and who he drank beer with. There was not an ounce of information for a young official to put into his basket on how to get to D1. So when I see him walk on the floor I just cringe and think about that article.
Personall, I officiated at the Utah Summer Games in 1993 and David Hall was there for 1 day as a guest evaluator. He criticized me for using the term "illegal use of hands" and challenged me to show him where in the rule book the term was used. We bet a dinner on the outcome.
Well as most officials know the term has been used for at least 26 years (my career) and when I showed it to Hall he just laughed it off, said "I am leaving this evening and that I would never see the dinner".
And this guy officiated the final game last year?
Finally, experience is the key to officiating at any level and staying there.
Enuf said about this subject.

Tim Roden · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 07, 2000, 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bsilliman
You mentioned David Hall.
Well, a couple of years ago Referee Magazine did an exclusive on him and his emphasis on how he got to the bigtime was who he knew and who he drank beer with. There was not an ounce of information for a young official to put into his basket on how to get to D1. So when I see him walk on the floor I just cringe and think about that article.
Personall, I officiated at the Utah Summer Games in 1993 and David Hall was there for 1 day as a guest evaluator. He criticized me for using the term "illegal use of hands" and challenged me to show him where in the rule book the term was used. We bet a dinner on the outcome.
Well as most officials know the term has been used for at least 26 years (my career) and when I showed it to Hall he just laughed it off, said "I am leaving this evening and that I would never see the dinner".
And this guy officiated the final game last year?
Finally, experience is the key to officiating at any level and staying there.
Enuf said about this subject.

Dave Hall, when he talks makes fun of himself more than anyone else so I would think he is big enough to handle it. If you are ever in Denver, let me know, I'll drop you off at his doorstep and you can deal with him personally.

He may have become an official the cheep way but I don't think that you get to the final 4 that way. Espeicially when many officials get fired for stupid things.

Glenn Lampman · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 07, 2000, 03:30pm

I agree that you have to choose the camp based on where you want to go.. If you want to move out of HS into the next level, you have to attend the camp that has the observers from that level. They are no more than try-outs for the next level and tend to teach the mechanics and philosophy for that level. Attending a college level camp and bringing the information back to HS level does not always work. If you have no expectations of moving beyond the HS level I would look for the best camp that is dedicated to NF rules and mechnics.

JRutledge · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 07, 2000, 07:19pm

I totally agree with you Glenn. If you go to a Women's college camp, it is going to screw you up totally. Men's college is very different, but the Women's mechanics are totally different than both. The NF and Men's mechanics are much more closely alined with each other in signals and floor coverage. But the college does not want to you birddog for the most part, and officials that do both are having trouble with the NF mechanics. And in Illinois, they are telling officials that if we do not do proper NF mechanics, it will be reported and might cost us post-season games if we do something else.

Quote:

Originally posted by Glenn Lampman
I agree that you have to choose the camp based on where you want to go.. If you want to move out of HS into the next level, you have to attend the camp that has the observers from that level. They are no more than try-outs for the next level and tend to teach the mechanics and philosophy for that level. Attending a college level camp and bringing the information back to HS level does not always work. If you have no expectations of moving beyond the HS level I would look for the best camp that is dedicated to NF rules and mechnics.

vhslref · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 09, 2000, 11:23am

I've been working high school basketball for 7 years. I'm only 25 years old and people are telling me now's the time to get in. I'm looking for a good camp to go to. I'm located in Southwest VA and would travel to anything in under 9-10 hrs. This would include the states of Tenn, KY, NC, and WVa. If anyone has any information,let me know; and remember, I got your back!

JRutledge · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 09, 2000, 06:37pm

Are you trying to get to the college level, or are you trying to just get training in HS levels.

Quote:

Originally posted by vhslref
I've been working high school basketball for 7 years. I'm only 25 years old and people are telling me now's the time to get in. I'm looking for a good camp to go to. I'm located in Southwest VA and would travel to anything in under 9-10 hrs. This would include the states of Tenn, KY, NC, and WVa. If anyone has any information,let me know; and remember, I got your back!

stripes · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 09, 2000, 07:03pm

I believe that camps should be chosen based on what one is trying to get out of the camp. Early in your career, I believe it is good to go to instructional camps. I believe that the best place to get instruction is college tryout camps that offer instruction. Learning from the best teachers is the best way to learn. I also am a firm believer in attending camps often--yearly if possible. If you do this you will notice that the clinicians will give you different things to work on each year. Listen and practice for the next season. Going to these camps is an excellent environment for learning. You will also be seen and evaluated as a potential hiree for the conference or assignor who puts on the camp.

If you have desires to do women's games (or men's games for that matter) go to camps that work on these games only. Like it or not, the women's and men's games are different. The officiating and emphasis is different. Learn to referee the game that you like.