CP Play 8.2 Sit. B and 2002-03 Pre-season Interpretation #5.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I apologize in advance for the long original comment, but I think the two plays that I am submitting are worth discussion.

The Rules Interpreter of the Wood County Basketball Officials Association during the season has a Play of the Week which he emails to the Members as well as publishes it on the Association's Facebook page. Yesterday he and I discussed two possible plays for the Play of the Week: Variations of two plays that we have discussed here.


Play #1: From January 2008 to August 2008 we discussed what became Casebook Play 8.2 Situation B in the 2008-09 NFHS Basketball Casebook (and still is the current Casebook):

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...shooter-8.html, and


Play #2: Which we discussed from October 2018 to November 2018: 2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations, Situation 5:

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...-sit-tick.html



Play #1:

NFHS Basketball Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (R3-S3-A4; R2-S3)

Full Disclosure: For those that are not familiar with CB Play 8.2 Sit. B, I presented the play to Mary Struckhoff, the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor at the time, in January 2008 with the two possible RULINGS and noting which RULING I supported. My email became CB Play 8.2 Sit. B with my RULING. I referenced R3-S1-A1 and its NOTE (This Rule is the over all governing Rule for the RULING.), R3-S3-A4 and R3-S3-A6 as the Rules that govern this CB Play. What is now R3-S3-A6 was R3-S3-A5 in 2008-09 and in 2008-09 Mary only included R3-S3-A4 and R2-S3 was only added much later. It is still my position that R3-S1-A1 and its NOTE, R3-S3-A4 and R3-S3-A6 and that R2-S3 has absolutely nothing to do with the CB Play.

As one can see from reading the Situation Team B has Time-outs remaining allowing it to utilize R3-S3-A6. But lets change the Situation to this:

Situation #1: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing and a) B3 may be able to return to play by the end of a time-out or b) It is obvious that B3 will not be able to continue to play no matter how much time is allowed for B3 to recover. Team B has no time-outs remaining.

Keeping in mind that R3-S1-A1 and its NOTE is the over all governing Rule for the original RULING, what are Team B's options:

a-1) If Team B wants B3 to remain in the game, Team B must utilize an excess time-out to allow B3 to recover by the end of the time-out. If B3 is unable to continue to play after the time-out has ended, B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute, or

a-2) If Team B does not want to utilize an excess time-out, B2 cannot re-enter the game until the first time to substitute after the game clock has started after the time-out has ended, and Team B must play with only four players until B2 can re-enter the game after the game clock has started after the end of the time-out. Any Team B Player (B1, B4, B5, or B6) will shoot B3's free throws.

b-1) If Team B wants B3 to remain in the game, Team B must utilize an excess time-out to allow B3 to recover by the end of the time-out. If B3 is unable to continue to play after the time-out has ended, B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute, or

b-2) If Team B does not want to utilize an excess time-out, B2 cannot re-enter the game until the first time to substitute after the game clock has started after the time-out has ended, and Team B must play with only four players until B2 can re-enter the game after the game clock has started after the end of the time-out. Any Team B Player (B1, B4, B5, or B6) will shoot B3's free throws.

Yes, the RULINGS to both (a-1) and (b-1) are the same and (a-2) and (b-2) are the same, but I broke them out as such to differentiate between the to recovery situations. And now R2-S3 may very well come into play.



Play #2:

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Interpretations, SITUATION 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. RULING: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (R3-S3-A5)

Note: 2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rule RS-A3-A5 is now 2021-22 NFHS Basketball Rule R3-S3-A6.

Situation #2: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when A5 has an asthma attack. The Team A's Head Coach is beckoned onto the floor. Team A has no time-outs remaining. It is obvious that: a) A5 will be able to return to play by the end of a time-out or b) A5 will not be able to continue to play no matter how much time is allowed for A5 to recover.

It is my personal opinion that R3-S1-A1 and its NOTE has to be considered when making a RULING (as well as the possibility that R2-S3 may have to be considered), what are Team A's options:

a-1) If Team A wants A5 to remain in the game, Team A must utilize an excess time-out to allow A5 to recover by the end of the time-out. If A5 recovers by the end of the time-out she can remain in the game after the time-out is over, or

a-2) If Team A does not want utilize an excess time-out, A5 cannot re-enter the game until the first time to substitute after the game clock has started after the time-out has ended. Team A must play with only four players until A5 can re-enter the game, or

b-1) If Team A wants A5 to remain in the game, Team A must utilize an excess time-out to allow A5 to recover by the end of the time-out. If A5 is unable to continue to play after the time-out has ended, Team A must play with only four players. A5 cannot re-enter the game until the first time to substitute after the game clock has started, or

b-2) If Team A does not want utilize an excess time-out, A5 cannot re-enter the game until the first time to substitute after the game clock has started after the time-out has ended. Team A must play with only four players until A5 can re-enter the game.

In the original discussions, the Teams were presumed to have Time-outs remaining. Teams in the Situations that I posted do not have Time-outs remaining and I then gave four possible Rulings. Let the discussion begin!

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Is there a question?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Is there a question?

Let the discussion begin!

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Is there a question?

There's got to be a question in there somewhere. The post is certainly long enough to have several questions. Maybe use a "find" feature and look for a question mark?

I just love Mark T. DeNucci, Sr's long-winded basketball officiating history lessons. Always nice to know that there is a basketball officiating history aficionado older, and longer-winded, than me on the Forum.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

See what I added in red at the bottom of my Original Post.

MTD, Sr.

[SNIPERBBB]

I don't think in any of the cases there's cause to force a team to burn a timeout or especially to force a team to take an excessive timeout as in football.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

I don't think in any of the cases there's cause to force a team to burn a timeout or especially to force a team to take an excessive timeout as in football.

Agreed. And, there's no way for an official to know (to such a certainty that it affects the ruling) when a player is likely to be able to return.

Allow the "exceptional sub" whenever the coach says the player can't play due to injury. I think that's "none of the above" in all the proposed quiz questions / answers.

[BryanV21]

Maybe the book doesn't support me here, but to me, an injury would overrule the "sit for a tick" thing.

[BillyMac]

We have a few situations where team members are not required to "sit a tick", and some don't even involve playing with only five players.

3-3-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain. Note: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team must forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

8.2 Situation B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended. Ruling: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

3.1.1 Situation: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. Ruling: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. Ruling: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

However:

2018-19 IAABO Refresher Exam
41) Team A has no timeouts remaining and has only five players and no substitutes. A-2 appears to be injured and the coach enters the court to attend to A-2. A-2 is OK. The official informs the coach that A-2 must stay in the game and charges Team A with an excess timeout. Is the official correct? Original IAABO answer was “Yes”, later deemed a mistake and changed to “No”.

Also:

2000-2001 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 5: A1 is fouled in the act of shooting and is awarded two free throws. A1 is injured on the play and Team A’s coach has been beckoned on the floor to attend to A1. Although by rule A1 should leave the game until the next legal opportunity to substitute, the officials make an error and permit A1 to complete the free throws before leaving. The opposing coach objects and insists that A1’s substitute should have shot the free throws, and a correctable error has occurred. Ruling: The officials made an error by permitting A1 to remain in the game. This is not a correctable error for a wrong player attempting a free throw, even though A1 is required to leave the game by rule. (3-3-5; 3-3-3)

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 1: A1 is fouled by B1 late in the second quarter. It is a common foul and the seventh Team B foul. The bonus situation is not recognized by the scorer or the officiating crew, and the Team A coach substitutes A6 for A1. A6 is beckoned onto the floor and A1 goes to the team bench. The scorer recognizes the error and sounds the horn (a) just before or (b) just after the administering official hands the ball to A2 for a throw-in. Ruling: This is a correctable-error situation and falls within the proper timeframe for a correction. In both (a) and (b), A6 leaves the game with A1 re-entering to shoot the bonus free throw. Play is resumed as after any free-throw attempt(s). If the second free throw is successful and the coach desires, A6 may re-enter the contest. (2-10-1a; 2-10-6)

8-2: The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul must be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute must attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by the team captain or head coach.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

I don't think in any of the cases there's cause to force a team to burn a timeout or especially to force a team to take an excessive timeout ...

While I (and maybe IAABO) agree with you, that playing with five trumps "sit a tick" rules, it appears that the NFHS does not agree with you.

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. Ruling: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

No team is ever forced to take a timeout, or an excessive timeout.

Want to play with five, take a timeout, even if excessive (technical foul).

Want to avoid a timeout, or a technical foul, play with four, and let the kid with asthma "sit a tick".

Again, I think otherwise, that playing with five trumps "sit a tick" rules (must have five players participating as long as it has that number available), and maybe so does IAABO, which doesn't mean a hill of beans to most Forum members.

3-3-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain. Note: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five ...

But it's hard to argue with a NFHS interpretation that is so specific and clear (player must leave unless time-out is requested and granted ... team may continue with fewer than five if there are no substitutes available).

[Altor]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While I (and maybe IAABO) agree with you, that playing with five trumps "sit a tick" rules, it appears that the NFHS does not agree with you.

I disagree. The interp you cite is saying the "coach beckoned out on the floor" rule trumps the "five players" rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Altor

The interp you cite is saying the "coach beckoned out on the floor" rule trumps the "five players" rule.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
Situation 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. Ruling: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

I can't argue with Altor, nor can I argue with such a specific and clear (player must leave unless time-out is requested and granted ... team may continue with fewer than five if there are no substitutes available) NFHS interpretation.

It's just that there are a few interpretations (see above) that stress the importance of playing with five when five are "available", and a few that point out an occasional exception of having to "sit a tick".

This "asthma" interpretation has me stymied.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's just that there are a few interpretations (see above) that stress the importance of playing with five when five are "available", and a few that point out an occasional exception of having to "sit a tick".

What does "available" actually mean?

I think that we can all agree that bench personnel that are disqualified or injured (also illness) are certainly not available.

Can players be deemed unavailable if they don't "sit a tick"?

They certainly don't have to "sit a tick" if they need to be the fifth player on the court due to another player's injury.

They certainly don't have to "sit a tick" if they were removed and need to shoot free throws as part of a correctable error.

Maybe Altor is correct about the "asthma" interpretation because the coach has a remedy to get his fifth player in the game with a timeout, even if it's an excessive timeout, whereas there is no remedy for another (sixth) player's injury, or the necessity of shooting free throws as part of a correctable error.

In any case, I believe that a team will never be "forced" (see 2018-19 IAABO Refresher Exam question #41 updated answer) to take a timeout to comply with the five player rule, the team has choices.