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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 09:05am
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Intentional Foul

Before the jump ball to start the game A-2 intentionally fouls B-5.
What is the correct procedure for shots and starting the A-P arrow?
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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 09:38am
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Feels like it should be a technical foul since the ball is dead. Two shots and the ball at the division line for the offended team. Set the arrow after the throw in ends.
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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 09:45am
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Before The Jump Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by surehands View Post
Before the jump ball to start the game A-2 intentionally fouls B-5. What is the correct procedure for shots and starting the A-P arrow?
Dead ball (assume before toss) technical foul for intentional contact. Any Team B member shoots two free throws (no rebounders). Team B gets ball at division line opposite the table. Alternating possession arrow is set after the throwin ends (probably to Team A).
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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 10:01am
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Before ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by surehands View Post
Before the jump ball ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbruno View Post
Feels like it should be a technical foul since the ball is dead.
Agree.

Depends on how "loose" or "strict" the word "before" was used (did it mean before the jump ball ended). If before is truly before the jump ball begins (could be during player introductions), it's a dead ball.

Jump ball becomes live when the toss leaves the official hand, so anything between that and the jump ball ending (touched ball contacts a non-jumper, official, floor, basket, or backboard) is a live ball.

Only difference I can think of between a live ball and dead ball here (other than how it gets marked in the scorebook) is who shoots the free throws, B5, or any Team B member.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 31, 2021 at 10:10am.
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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 10:51am
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The arrow is set when ball is at disposal for the throw-in. The throw-in would not be an AP throw-in so you wouldn't wait for it to end to set the arrow.

If it were a common foul in OT before possession is gained, arrow is set at disposal for any free throws, or at the disposal of the throw in if no free throws are involved.

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Last edited by Raymond; Sun Oct 31, 2021 at 11:20am.
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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 11:27am
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Alternating Possession Control Established ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The arrow is set when ball is at disposal for the throw-in. The throw-in would not be an AP throw-in so you wouldn't wait for it to end to set the arrow. If it were a common foul in OT before possession is gained, arrow is set at disposal for any free throws, or at the disposal of the throw in if no free throws are involved.
Nice catch Raymond. Thank you.

4-3: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent’s basket when:
ART. 1 A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball beginning the game and each extra period.
ART. 2 The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.
ART. 3 The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a non-common foul.
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.
NOTE: This procedure is used only to establish the alternating-possession procedure. See 6-4 for using the procedure and reversing the possession arrow.

6.4.1 SITUATION A: Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game. RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1’s technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in for B1’s infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the alternating possession procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward B’s basket. Team B will have the first opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (a) is touched by A2 and it then goes out of bounds; (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; or (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (a), Team B will have a throw-in. The alternating-possession procedure is established and the arrow is set toward A’s basket when a player of Team B has the ball for the throw-in. Team A will have the first opportunity to throw-in when the procedure is used. In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred. In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A’s basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

6.4.1 SITUATION E: During the jump ball to start the game, after the ball is tossed: (a) B1 violates; (b) B1 fouls A1; or (c) A1 intentionally fouls B1. When is the possession arrow set? RULING: In (a) and (b), when the ball is in the possession of the thrower of Team A, Team A has gained control for purposes of establishing the procedure, and the arrow is immediately pointed in the direction of B’s basket. In (c), the arrow is pointed in the direction of A’s basket when a player of B has the ball or it is at the thrower’s disposal for the throw-in following the free throws. (4-3)

6.4.1 SITUATION F: A team member of Team A is detected dunking about five minutes before the game and a team member of B does the same thing about a minute later. RULING: The game will start with administration of the technical-foul free throws in the order in which the fouls were called. Team B shoots first followed by Team A. Team A will then be given the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the table. When the thrower of Team A is bounced the ball or it is placed at his/her disposal, the possession arrow will be set pointing toward Team B’s basket. (4-3; 7-5-6a)
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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 03:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

Only difference I can think of between a live ball and dead ball here (other than how it gets marked in the scorebook) is who shoots the free throws, B5, or any Team B member.
If it's dead, it's an intentional technical foul -- one of two T's for DQ (and one of five total fouls for DQ).

If it's live, it's an intentional personal foul -- one of five fouls for DQ.
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Old Sun Oct 31, 2021, 03:23pm
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Foul Numbers ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
If it's dead, it's an intentional technical foul -- one of two T's for DQ (and one of five total fouls for DQ). If it's live, it's an intentional personal foul -- one of five fouls for DQ.
That's what I meant by "how it gets marked in the scorebook". Thanks for taking the time to clarify for others.
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Old Wed Nov 03, 2021, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Nice catch Raymond. Thank you.

4-3: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponents basket when:
ART. 1 A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball beginning the game and each extra period.
ART. 2 The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.
ART. 3 The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a non-common foul.
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.
NOTE: This procedure is used only to establish the alternating-possession procedure. See 6-4 for using the procedure and reversing the possession arrow.

6.4.1 SITUATION A: Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. B1 is discovered to be wearing an illegal jersey, as the players prepare for the start of the game. RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1s technical foul. Team A will then be given two free throws and the ball for a division-line throw-in for B1s infraction. When the thrower of Team A has the ball for the throw-in, they have control for purposes of establishing the alternating possession procedure and the arrow is immediately set toward Bs basket. Team B will have the first opportunity for an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-3)

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (a) is touched by A2 and it then goes out of bounds; (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; or (d) is caught by A1. RULING: In (a), Team B will have a throw-in. The alternating-possession procedure is established and the arrow is set toward As basket when a player of Team B has the ball for the throw-in. Team A will have the first opportunity to throw-in when the procedure is used. In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred. In (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team As basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

6.4.1 SITUATION E: During the jump ball to start the game, after the ball is tossed: (a) B1 violates; (b) B1 fouls A1; or (c) A1 intentionally fouls B1. When is the possession arrow set? RULING: In (a) and (b), when the ball is in the possession of the thrower of Team A, Team A has gained control for purposes of establishing the procedure, and the arrow is immediately pointed in the direction of Bs basket. In (c), the arrow is pointed in the direction of As basket when a player of B has the ball or it is at the throwers disposal for the throw-in following the free throws. (4-3)

6.4.1 SITUATION F: A team member of Team A is detected dunking about five minutes before the game and a team member of B does the same thing about a minute later. RULING: The game will start with administration of the technical-foul free throws in the order in which the fouls were called. Team B shoots first followed by Team A. Team A will then be given the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the table. When the thrower of Team A is bounced the ball or it is placed at his/her disposal, the possession arrow will be set pointing toward Team Bs basket. (4-3; 7-5-6a)

I was wondering for how long would quote the Rules Book. This is correct for NFHS but I will have to get back to the Forum for NCAA Men's and Women's.

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Old Wed Nov 03, 2021, 03:05pm
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Credit Where Credit Is Due ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... would quote the Rules Book.
While I quoted the rule, give Raymond credit for catching my mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbruno View Post
Set the arrow after the throw in ends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Alternating possession arrow is set after the throwin ends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The arrow is set when ball is at disposal for the throw-in. The throw-in would not be an AP throw-in so you wouldn't wait for it to end to set the arrow.
Always nice to have partners (or colleagues) that have your back.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Nov 03, 2021 at 03:07pm.
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