Fun With An Off The Ball Foul …

[BillyMac]

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...Xx1LfmXp9e.mp4

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This should be ruled a double foul.

In situations like this, the goal of officials is ty to get the first foul and penalize accordingly. Deciding on what that is was no easy task. The results among respondents are as follows: 26.1% charged Blue 2; 34.8% charged White 24; 26.6% charged double foul. A solid case could be made for any of these responses.

As the play develops, it appears the defender; Blue #2, extends his right arm into the torso on White #24. As this occurs, white #24 grabs the arm of Blue #2. Each of these actions is illegal and warrants a foul.

However, regardless of who fouled when. A key teaching point of this play is the actions of white #24. His approach to the contact would fall into the category of a "fool the official" play. After he grabs the arm of his opponent, he flails his arms upward and embellishes the contact. Officials should be aware that some players will "hook and hold" their opponent and then try to act as if fouled.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: The foul is on White No. 24 35%. This should be ruled a double foul 26%. The foul is on Blue No. 2 26% (including me). There is no foul on this play 13%.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I'm beginning to like a personal double foul more and more every time I watch the video.

[Kansas Ref]

That greater than 10% of the respondents (who have been trained in the same IABO way) viewed this as a "play on" type of action is interesting; leading one to infer that this series of actions wasn't really all that "foul-worthy" to begin with.
However, do you guys ever call a foul on a player for feigning a foul? I know its a foul in the NF rule book (chapter and verse: 10.?.?). But honestly don't think it s ever called, agreeably it would require temerity to do so.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

... do you guys ever call a foul on a player for feigning a foul? ... But honestly don't think it s ever called, agreeably it would require temerity to do so.

10-4-6-F: A player must not: Faking being fouled.

I've been playing, coaching, officiating, and observing since mid-1960's. Never saw it called.

I'm pretty sure that some Forum members have seen it called (or called it). Others have posted about warning the perpetrator, or calling a "fake" foul on the perpetrator.

Probably see it called more in soccer (flopping).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10-4-6-F: A player must not: Faking being fouled.

I've been playing, coaching, officiating, and observing since mid-1960's. Never saw it called.

I'm pretty sure that some Forum members have seen it called (or called it). Others have posted about warning the perpetrator, or calling a "fake" foul on the perpetrator.

Probably see it called more in soccer (flopping).

There is a play in the IAABO "You Make the Ruling" Vol. 13 video that shows an official actually calling this. But the problem is that there are no parameters in the rulebook as to who to call this or not to call this. The NCAA has addressed this and gives many examples of how to rule on these kinds of plays. Does faking being fouled include embellishment? And if there is contact should this be the remedy?

This is play #4 under the "Block/Charge" section of the USB program BTW.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

That greater than 10% of the respondents... viewed this as a "play on" type of action is interesting; leading one to infer that this series of actions wasn't really all that "foul-worthy" to begin with.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Actually took me a few times through the video to find any foul. Gotta stop ball watching.

I wondered the same thing myself.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

That greater than 10% of the respondents (who have been trained in the same IABO way) viewed this as a "play on" type of action is interesting; leading one to infer that this series of actions wasn't really all that "foul-worthy" to begin with.
However, do you guys ever call a foul on a player for feigning a foul? I know its a foul in the NF rule book (chapter and verse: 10.?.?). But honestly don't think it s ever called, agreeably it would require temerity to do so.

Based on all the videos and responses, you'd get greater than 10% answering incorrectly to "Tue or False -- The basketball must be an approves shade of orange, red-orange, or brown"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Based on all the videos and responses, you'd get greater than 10% answering incorrectly to "True or False -- The basketball must be an approves shade of orange, red-orange, or brown"

The seven hundred, or so, IAABO members that comment on these videos probably represent a pretty good (but not perfect, those who volunteer to participate may not be the same as those that do not volunteer to participate) cross section of all 15,000 IAABO basketball officials. Those 15,000 IAABO basketball officials probably represent a pretty good (but not perfect) cross section of all basketball officials.

Great basketball officials. Journeymen basketball officials. Poor basketball officials. Varsity basketball officials. Junior varsity basketball officials. Freshmen basketball officials. Middle school basketball officials. Basketball officials with decades of experience. Inexperienced basketball officials. Rookie basketball officials. Basketball officials with great local trainers and training. Basketball officials with average local trainers and training. Basketball officials with below average local trainers and training.

Some with better rules knowledge than others, just like many Forum members would find in their own local or state organizations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... The blue player sticks his arm out for sure, but the white player starts the sequence by trying to swim the player.

Without Blue #2's arm stuck on his chest, maybe White #24 doesn't latch on to it?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... The foul is on White No. 24 35%.

35% (a plurality) of the IAABO members that commented on the video agreed with JRutledge.

Kansas Ref: I see your five dollar word, temerity, and raise you another five dollar word, plurality.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Without Blue #2's arm stuck on his chest, maybe White #24 doesn't latch on to it?

I do not see contact until the white player grabs the arm and tries to swim it. Then acts like he was contacted in a way to get you to think he was fouled. Just because you stick your arm out does not mean you fouled someone, even if you touch them. That is why we say see the entire play.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not see contact until the white player grabs the arm and tries to swim it.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... Blue #2's intentionally and illegally extended arm into White #24"s chest kept White #24 three feet farther away from the basket and a possible rebound. This gave a much shorter Blue #2, with an inside position, a possible tremendous rebounding advantage over a much taller White #24.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Look at the video again, "First Blood" was Blue #2 intentionally and illegally extending an arm into White #24"s chest, which was followed almost immediately (split second) by White #24 intentionally and illegally latching onto Blue #2's extended arm.

Blink and you will miss it. It was that close ("followed almost immediately (split second)"). Slow the video down and one can clearly but barely see the touch first, and then the latch on.

JRutledge already matched the "number one answer", and should be pleased that his interpretation is agreed upon by many.

The “Gang of Four” IAABO Co-Coordinators of Interpreters seem to imply that both "contacts" occurred at the same time (contradicting both JRutledge and me).

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Blue #2, extends his right arm into the torso on White #24. As this occurs, white #24 grabs the arm of Blue #2.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Blink and you will miss it. It was that close ("followed almost immediately (split second)"). Slow the video down and one can clearly but barely see the touch first, and then the latch on.

JRutledge already matched the "number one answer", that would satisfy me.

I do not think I missed anything. I saw what I saw and used my judgment to draw a conclusion. IT does not mean that there could not have been a foul at some point with that action, but we are not talking about an action in general, but the specific kind of play. IAABO is asking for an answer in the poll, they are not asking for a breaking down of the video and why you call it one way or the other.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

IAABO is asking for an answer in the poll, they are not asking for a breaking down of the video and why you call it one way or the other.

Two parts to these play commentaries. Yes, there is a poll, but then there is a video breakdown with "correct" answer based on the combined expertise of four highly respected veteran interpreters (trainers) who have been selected to lead and train this organization of 15,000 basketball officials.

And, yes, sometimes they get it wrong. They themselves have occasionally admitted such.

And yes, often the poll "winners" are wrong.

Note: Not only are IAABO members asked for an multiple choice answer, but in order to answer such, they must give a reason, it's mandatory, not optional.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Two parts to these play commentaries. Yes, there is a poll, but then there is a video breakdown with "correct" answer based on the combined expertise of four highly respected veteran interpreters (trainers) who have been selected to lead ad train this organization of 15,000 basketball officials.

And, yes, sometimes they get it wrong.They themselves have occasionally admitted such.

And yes, often the poll "winners" are wrong.

Note: Not only are IAABO members asked for an multiple choice answer, but in order to answer such, they must give a reason, it's mandatory, not optional.

I break down film all the time and get opinions from very experienced officials as well and they sometimes disagree. So why is this new in IAABO? Been to camps where you show a play or explain a play and there are different ways to handle it by the clinicians. This is your organization and you have a right to value their opinion. I met Donnie Eppley this past July and he is a great guy and I would value his opinion if talking to him about these plays. But I work for some guys that are D1 and have a lot of experience and when we have shown plays on other forums, often we hear differing opinions from those individuals. So it is not about who wins a poll, but what took place and the way it was explained to call the play. I did not say I was right or care what others think, I saw this play because I have seen plays like this 100 times and was told how to call it by people I work for or work with. If the contact was by the black player, then call that foul and move on. I am not a fan of double fouls in general. Get the first foul.

Peace