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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 04, 2021, 08:52am
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Fun With A Shoulder …

IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...jiXKOLJAUD.mp4

Is this a Player Control Foul? Observe the action of the offensive player and make a judgment as to whether or not he commits a Player Control Foul.

Two choices: This is a Player Control Foul. This is incidental contact.


My comment: This is a Player Control Foul. Offensive player White #31 gains an illegal advantage by extending his right shoulder and upper arm to contact and create space between himself and Red #25.
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Old Wed Aug 04, 2021, 09:37am
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Nothing at the HS level.
NCAAM officials probably consider a cylinder foul by the defense, but likely leave this alone.
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Old Wed Aug 04, 2021, 09:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Nothing at the HS level.
NCAAM officials probably consider a cylinder foul by the defense, but likely leave this alone.
Agreed. The offensive player moves within his cylinder. The defensive player puts himself in a vunrable defensive position.
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Old Wed Aug 04, 2021, 10:16am
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I would like to be able to see what the elbow did, because the offensive player definitely moved it in the direction of the defender. But I can't tell if there was contact because of it.

This would be a cylinder play at the NCAA-Men's level before we would call a foul on the offense.

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Old Wed Aug 04, 2021, 10:56am
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I do not agree that this would be a cylinder foul at the NCAA Men's level. The elbow or movement would have to be natural and this was not natural. I do not see much contact to warrant a foul, but certainly not calling a cylinder foul on the defender. He cannot just throw himself into a defender in situations like this and warrant a foul on the defender. And it looks like the contact did little or nothing anyway. So I am good with this not being called at the NF level as well.

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Old Wed Aug 04, 2021, 11:13am
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Creating Space ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I would like to be able to see what the elbow did, because the offensive player definitely moved it in the direction of the defender. But I can't tell if there was contact because of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The elbow or movement would have to be natural and this was not natural. I do not see much contact to warrant a foul ... looks like the contact did little or nothing anyway ...
Contact by offensive player White #31's shoulder, upper arm, and elbow created both space and an illegal advantage.

Watch Red #25's reaction to the contact. After the push, his body and head are forced back.

Granted, there wasn't a lot of space created (Red #25 was still able to contest the shot), but it was enough space to help White #31 to make the jumper.

Also agree with JRutledge that the movement by White #31 was not "natural".

His movement wasn't just a fake to get Red #25 into the air.

White #31 knew exactly what he wanted to do (push to create space) and he was successful (barely) at doing it.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Aug 04, 2021 at 05:47pm.
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Old Sun Aug 08, 2021, 09:26am
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IAABO Survey Says …

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO International interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...jiXKOLJAUD.mp4

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is a Player Control Foul.

A player in the low post area ends a dribble before jumping to attempt a try. After completing his dribble, the shooter could have jumped vertically to attempt the try but instead decided to lean forward with his shoulder into the defender before making the attempt. The defender was within his vertical plane and in a legal guarding position when the contact occurred.

Why do you suppose the ball handler took this approach? Did he need this extra space to make the attempt? By rule, the offensive player, whether on the floor or airborne, may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane, which is a foul. (4-45-5) This play does not come down to the severity of the contact. The only question we as officials need to ask ourselves is, "Did the shooter gain an advantage by creating this contact?" For 75% of respondents, the shooter gained an advantage by contacting the defender, and a player control foul should be charged on this play.


Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is a Player Control Foul 75% (including me). This is incidental contact 25%.
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Old Sat Aug 28, 2021, 07:06pm
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Pc

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 31, 2021, 01:14am
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This type of mid-post move is taught as set of counter-moves; such that A1 should be adept to either pivot away from or drop- step under to evade B1 who had established LGP. The simple observation that A1 gets himself into a "problem position" in executing his post move and is only able to solve his problem by displacing B1 (seemed like face mask was disheveled also) would render any call except an immediate PC; "rules-kicking". My C ought to have really good look at this action right.
Note that view is delimited to contests in the NF domain as that is exclusively where I officiate.

Last edited by Kansas Ref; Tue Aug 31, 2021 at 01:26am. Reason: Grammar
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Old Tue Aug 31, 2021, 06:38am
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I think I have to go nothing here because while I don't like white using the shoulder elbow to create advantage the defender is pressing into the offensive cylinder (legs around, leaning against, face over shoulder, etc). If offense goes straight up they are probably getting the foul call because they won't be able to shoot without being impeded, however they choose to push off to create the space to finish. Don't like the push off but can't call it here because the D is committing foul first. Given choices PC or incidental. Incidental.
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