Correctable Error

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

While I may dip my foot in the water, it may not be a hill that I want to die on.

Every party has a pooper and that's why we invited Mike Goodwin.

I still like using 4-5 to avoid counting points scored by free throws at the wrong basket for the team that "owns" the basket (not the shooter's team) for an uncorrectable error (too late).

4-5 is in the rulebook so let's push the envelope a little and use it as a "work around" to avoid controversy (and to keep visiting coaches from being forced to sit on cold buses in parking lots).

Anybody disagree?

Note: The buses in parking lots in Fairbanks, Alaska must be very, very cold. Maybe about -15 °F?

[JRutledge]

I'm convinced the only reason Billy responses several times in a row is to get higher on the posting list. There cannot be that much overthinking about none issues by anyone that has a semblance of a life. Every rule does not need that much dissertation with people that do not make "nar" rule.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm convinced the only reason Billy responses several times in a row is to get higher on the posting list.

No. The reason is to get some semblance of closure on complex issues that may have been unintentionally left unclear by the NFHS.

There are different level of rules expertise among those of us that seriously study the rules.

For some rules experts rules expertise means to understand rules in such a way as to get them through 99% of situations one may encounter in "real game" situations. This level of study, along with mechanics study, signals study, experience, game management "people" skills, physical ability, understanding of the game, etc., will lead to a very successful basketball officiating career, maybe becoming one of the best basketball officials in an area, possibly becoming a local, or state, interpreter/trainer/clinician, etc.

And then there are those, like myself, who wish to kick up their rules expertise a notch, maybe to a level of intellectual curiosity others may not desire. We attempt to understand rules at a level that exceeds 99% of situations one may find occurring in "real game" situations, odd situations that test one's rules knowledge on a "written exam" level.

Why do we do it? I can't speak for all, but for me it's not to be a better "real game" official, it's not to be a better trainer, and it's not to show off. It's the intellectual challenge of "deep diving" into the rulebook and casebook to try to find answers that may not be readily apparent at first glance, especially regarding odd situations unintentionally left unclear by the NFHS.

And as an added extra bonus, during a "deep dive" one may occasionally come across an "Easter egg" situation, or interpretation, that may actually be useful in a "real game".

Some "research" requires multiple posts, to clarify something by peeling away additional layers of the onion, or to try to clarify something with new wording.

Thanks to Forum members Zoochy, Nevadaref, bob jenkins, Camron Rust, and Mike Goodwin, there are a few great insights regarding the "sausage making" process of correcting errors in this thread.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

8-2: The free throw(s) awarded because of a personal foul must be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute must attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate may attempt the throw(s) as selected by the team captain or head coach.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 1: A1 is fouled by B1 late in the second quarter. It is a common foul and the seventh Team B foul. The bonus situation is not recognized by the scorer or the officiating crew, and the Team A coach substitutes A6 for A1. A6 is beckoned onto the floor and A1 goes to the team bench. The scorer recognizes the error and sounds the horn (a) just before or (b) just after the administering official hands the ball to A2 for a throw-in. RULING: This is a correctable-error situation and falls within the proper timeframe for a correction. In both (a) and (b), A6 leaves the game with A1 re-entering to shoot the bonus free throw. Play is resumed as after any free-throw attempt(s). If the second free throw is successful and the coach desires, A6 may re-enter the contest. (2-10-1a; 2-10-6)[/I]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-5: A team’s own basket is the one into which its players try to throw or tap the ball. If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed must count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play must resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

Even JRutledge's incorrect interpretation of an error as not being correctable when it actually was correctable was of great value because it allowed Forum members (and readers) an opportunity to re-examine (step by step) the correctable error time frame.

Have we achieved absolute closure to all the situations described in this thread? No we haven't because the NFHS needs more clarity in some if its rules and interpretations. But for those of us who want to kick our rule expertise up a notch, it was a great discussion.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Anybody disagree?

I would still like to see free throws at the wrong basket deleted from the correctable error list, and use 4-5 to take care of such situations.

Why does it bother me that free throws at the wrong basket is on the correctable error list?

Because it's presence on correctable error list seems to imply that the NFHS wants us to count points scored by free throws at the wrong basket for the team that "owns" the basket for a (too late) uncorrectable error, something that many here on the Forum consider to be an abomination.

That's why.

[Mike Goodwin]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would still like to see free throws at the wrong basket deleted from the correctable error list, and use 4-5 to take care of such situations.

Why does it bother me that free throws at the wrong basket is on the correctable error list?

Did you find 2.10.4 Situation B insufficient?

2.10.4 SITUATION B

"The officials erroneously permit A1 to shoot technical foul free throws at Team B’s basket; A1 makes both free throws. When the error is discovered, the timeframe for the correctable error (a) has not passed; or (b) has passed.

In (a), cancel the successful free throws by A1 and administer the free throws again at the correct basket. In (b), the free throws by A1 shall not be canceled and count toward Team A’s point total."

What benefit is there from deleting "the wrong basket" from 2-10-1? Team A keeps the points they scored in the other basket, if the error isn't corrected in time.

[JRutledge]

This only seems to be an issue for you Billy. It really is not something many people argue or debate. The rule says that it must be done at the correct basket, why it is that way is really not that much of a debate. Don't let it happen and then you have nothing to worry about. Shoot at the proper basket. It does not even say that shooting out of order is an issue. I have never in all my years heard anyone go on and on about this but you at this point Billy. So take that for what it is worth. And I know I am around many more officials than you are in your little corner of Conneticut. I was around people this past weekend from all over the country in Texas. No one is struggling with this issue.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This only seems to be an issue for you ...

And apparently for the NFHS since they have a casebook play that specifically deals with this situation.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The rule says that it must be done at the correct basket ...

One rule does. One rule doesn't.

When the time frame of a correctable error has not passed, it is true that the free throws must be attempted at the correct basket, but when the time frame of a correctable error has passed that's not true, the free throws don't have to be attempted at the correct basket, and if points are scored, they count for the shooting team (4-5).

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Don't let it happen and then you have nothing to worry about. Shoot at the proper basket.

Agree 100%.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Best way to handle correctable errors is to avoid them. Unfortunately, especially in middle school games with no team fouls on the scoreboard, sometimes the scorekeepers (sometimes students) are asleep at the switch. I wish that I got a dollar every time I asked a middle school scorekeeper, "Is it one and one?", or, "How many team fouls now?".

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This is why all four of my local interpreters over forty years have each told us, on many occasions, to get together with partners before technical foul free throws to make sure that, at minimum, we're shooting at the correct basket. I always think, "Never. No way". But they keep telling us that we often call technical fouls when we're pissed off and maybe a little emotional and that it's easy under those conditions get distracted and to accidentally and carelessly get "turned around". And then being forced to subsequently correct the error can really make us look foolish under the watchful eyes of players, coaches, and fans. "These guys can't even go in the right direction. What a bunch of fools".

[BillyMac]

Why is Nevadaref posting under Mike Goodwin's username?

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

2.10.4 SITUATION B: The officials erroneously permit A1 to shoot technical foul free throws at Team B’s basket; A1 makes both free throws. When the error is discovered, the time frame for the correctable error (a) has not passed; or (b) has passed. RULING: In (a), cancel the successful free throws by A1 and administer the free throws again at the correct basket. In (b), the free throws by A1 shall not be canceled and count toward Team A’s point total..

Great drop the microphone citation. Thanks.

Pretty much what bob jenkins said a while back.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Follow both rules -- correct it if you can; don't if you can't.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Two technical foul free throws successful (or unsuccessful) at the wrong basket. So, within the correctable error time frame, use the correctable error rule, meaning two sets of free throws (cancelling first set, counting second set), which may piss off one head coach. Why coach? Because, by rule, it's a correctable error (attempting a free throw at the wrong basket) and we have to do it that way. Outside of the correctable error time frame, use 4-5, one set of free throws, and count the points (if any) for the team that shot the free throws. Why coach? Because, by rule 4-5, it's not a correctable error (too late to correct) and we have to do it that way (must count as if each team had gone the proper direction). But under absolutely no circumstances, when outside the correctable error time frame, should we count the points (if any) for the team that "owns" the basket. Why coach? Because of rule 4-5 (must count as if each team had gone the proper direction).

I like the ruling on (b) because it confirms that NFHS wants us to count points scored by free throws at the wrong basket for the team that shoots the free throws, not the team that "owns" the basket for a (too late) uncorrectable error.

Like Mike Goodwin stated earlier, the NFHS really wants players shooting free throws at the correct basket, even it there is no danger of points counting for the "wrong" team.

Thanks guys. The layers of the onion have been peeled away.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...


I like the ruling on (b) because it confirms that NFHS wants us to count points scored by free throws at the wrong basket for the team that shoots the free throws, not the team that "owns" the basket for a (too late) uncorrectable error...

There is not a single sane or sensible person I know who would think to credit points to the opponent if somebody shoots free throws at the wrong basket.

That was never part of any debate in this thread. That is an example of you making up stuff in your head just so you can post back and forth with yourself.




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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There is not a single sane or sensible person I know who would think to credit points to the opponent if somebody shoots free throws at the wrong basket.

I never seriously thought that, but wondered why it was so important that this be a correctable error since nobody got "cheated" by an official's "mistake".

Not free throws, and not a mistake by the officials, but you haven't officiated very long if you have never observed a confused player attempting to shoot at the "wrong" basket and any points scored count for the "other" team (with all the complications if said player is fouled by an equally confused defender).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

Not free throws, and not a mistake by the officials, but you haven't officiated very long if you have never observed a confused player attempting to shoot at the "wrong" basket and any points scored count for the "other" team (with all the complications if said player is fouled by an equally confused defender).

What does that have to do with the subject of shooting free throws at the wrong basket?

I'll answer for you--nothing at all. Nobody has ever been confused enough to think that shooting free throws at the wrong basket will count as points for the opponent, so I don't know why you're posting 20 plus times to yourself on the subject.


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[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I never seriously thought that, but wondered why it was so important that this be a correctable error since nobody got "cheated" by an official's "mistake".

Not free throws, and not a mistake by the officials, but you haven't officiated very long if you have never observed a confused player attempting to shoot at the "wrong" basket and any points scored count for the "other" team (with all the complications if said player is fouled by an equally confused defender).

No one said it was "so" important except you through your own inferences.

It's just a correctable error to everyone else. The free throws were shot at the wrong basket. It's correctable whether the free throws were missed or made.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin

Did you find 2.10.4 Situation B insufficient?

Are Forum members with less than fifty posts allowed to be sarcastic?

Maybe someone who travels to games in puddle jumpers has paid his "dues" and is allowed to be what he wants to be?