The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 09:50am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
IAABO Survey Says …

Disclaimer: Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...O0M%2F5w%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary

Correct Answer: This is a Charge.

Blue #10 drives into the lane and jumps to pass the ball to a teammate in the lane. The defender obtains a legal guarding position (2 feet on the floor, facing the opponent) before Blue #10 became airborne. (4-23-5d) Since the defender obtained a legal guarding position, Blue #10 is responsible for the contact. In NFHS rules, this would be a team control foul. (4-19-7)

A high percentage of respondents ruled this play to be a player control foul. A player-control foul is a common foul committed by a player while he/she is in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter. (4-19-6) Even though the administration of the penalties is the same as the team control foul, it is not accurate to refer to this as a player control foul. Blue #10 no longer had control of the ball once he released the ball on the pass. (4-12-1, 4-12-2b) Had Blue #10 released the ball on a try for goal instead of a pass and then charged, a player control foul would have been committed by rule.


Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is a Charge 41% (including me). This is Player Control foul 39%. This is incidental contact (NCC - No Call Correct) 13%. This is a Blocking foul 5%. This is a Flop 2%.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 04, 2021 at 10:02am.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 09:53am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Player/Team Control ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Maybe IAABO wants to highlight that while all player control fouls are team control fouls the reverse is not always true (all team control fouls are not always player control fouls). A few early returns from IAABO members who have already commented show that a few are confused by this principle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
... 17% of IAABO officials will think this is a PC foul despite the pass ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Let's see if the 17% prediction holds up. I hope that 17% is too high (I'm a rose colored glasses kind of guy), but it might be a good over/under.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: ... This is Player Control foul 39% ...
Wow! Who bet the over?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 04, 2021 at 10:03am.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 11:02am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
What's Going On (Marvin Gaye, 1971) ...

Since the administration of the penalties is the same for both team control fouls and player control fouls, in the heat of a real game, it's nothing more than a minor faux pas for an official to give the wrong signal, or the wrong verbal description.

But this isn't in the heat of a real game, it's a video situation that can be played and replayed, and where multiple choice answers point to a differentiation of the two type of fouls, and I am very disappointing in the survey results.

Any official that gets this wrong can still be a great official, a great partner, well respected by assigners, colleagues, coaches, and players, but seeing such poor survey results still leaves me scratching my head and wondering, "What going on?".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 04, 2021 at 11:55am.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 11:16am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,590
For the record, at the NCAA Men's level and under the CCA Mechanics, the signal for TC and PC fouls are exactly the same. It is the hand behind the head no matter what kind of foul you are calling. Terminology is different, but it must be noted that the officials are not supposed to just point as in the past.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 11:38am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Certs, Two Mints In One ...

... a candy mint and a breath mint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
For the record, at the NCAA Men's level and under the CCA Mechanics, the signal for TC and PC fouls are exactly the same. It is the hand behind the head no matter what kind of foul you are calling.
I believe tht the NFHS Rules Committee had a suggestion on the table to have one signal for both, but it was the "punch" signal.

We'll find out in a few weeks if the suggestion was approved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Do you know what changes are on the agenda at the NFHS Rule Committee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Eliminate player control signal...use only team control signal
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 04, 2021 at 11:56am.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 12:10pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Anticipation (Carly Simon, 1971) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
We'll find out in a few weeks if the suggestion was approved.
Last year's 2020-21 high school basketball rule changes were announced by the NFHS on May 11, 2020.

Can you feel the anticipation in the air?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 12:51pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,590
Here is the CCA Manual change that took place this year.



Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 01:27pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Willy-Nilly ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Here is the CCA Manual change that took place this year.
Thanks JRutledge.

Because of confusion with the “count the basket” signal the fist punch signal has been eliminated.

I'm pretty sure that the NCAA/CCA didn't just come up with this change Willy-nilly in an unplanned, haphazard fashion, and based it on some rational thought.

So why did the NFHS ignore this careful and thoughtful NCAA/CCA decision and decide to explore the possibility of doing just the opposite (fist punch)?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed May 12, 2021 at 06:03pm.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 01:39pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks JRutledge.

Because of confusion with the “count the basket” signal the fist punch signal has been eliminated.

I'm pretty sure that the NCAA/CCA didn't just come up with this change Willy-nilly in an unplanned, haphazard fashion, and based it on some rational thought.

So why did the NFHS ignore this careful and thoughtful decision and decide to explore the possibility of doing just the opposite (hand behind the head)?
There were several plays in the NCAA tournament where the officials looked like they might have been counting the basket, but were calling PC fouls without a hand behind their head. So this helped change the mechanic. It was hard to do for things like Illegal screens but I got there kind of eventually.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 01:52pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Did The NFHS Just Flip A Coin ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
There were several plays in the NCAA tournament where the officials looked like they might have been counting the basket, but were calling PC fouls without a hand behind their head.
I understand the rationale, and recall a Forum thread about that, with some videos.

So why did the NFHS ignore those NCAA/CCA reasons for the change and go down the road not taken, exploring the possibility of just using the punch signal, and eliminating the NCAA/CCA favored hand behind the head signal, going against all rational thought?

Of course, I'm jumping the gun here, we'll have to wait a few weeks to see what the NFHS decides to do, if anything, with these PC/TC signals.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 04, 2021 at 03:58pm.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 02:21pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,590
Doesn't the NF want to be unique?

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 02:51pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
Unique ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Doesn't the NF want to be unique?
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.


Robert Frost, 1915
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue May 04, 2021 at 03:56pm.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 03:56pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,966
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I understand the rationale, and recall a Forum thread about that, with some videos.

So why did the NFHS ignore those NCAA/CCA reasons for the change and go down the road not taken, exploring the possibility of just using the punch signal, and eliminating the NCAA/CCA favored hand behind the head signal, against all rational thought?

Of course, I'm jumping the gun here, we'll have to wait a few weeks to see what the NFHS decides to do, if anything, with these PC/TC signals.
NCAA-Women's does not use the same signals for offensive fouls that NCAA-Men's do, so it's not as simple as copying what the NCAA does. Each organization does what they feel like doing.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 04, 2021, 04:10pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 19,880
One Of These Things Is Not Like The Others ...

... One of these things just doesn't belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others, By the time I finish my song?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
NCAA-Women's does not use the same signals for offensive fouls that NCAA-Men's do, so it's not as simple as copying what the NCAA does. Each organization does what they feel like doing.
So it's possible that the NCAAM will be the odd man out.

Interesting.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 05, 2021, 09:07am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... One of these things just doesn't belong, Can you tell which thing is not like the others, By the time I finish my song?



So it's possible that the NCAAM will be the odd man out.

Interesting.
Each committee does not give a crap what the other one does. They worry about their game and their game only for the most part. As should be expected. That is why women has quarters and men have halves. They have different concerns.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pass and Crash Gutierrez7 Basketball 20 Tue Dec 29, 2015 04:47am
Pass/Crash dacodee Basketball 7 Wed Dec 03, 2008 06:07pm
Pass / Crash bseybs32 Basketball 6 Fri Dec 17, 2004 08:01pm
Pass and Crash Buckley11 Basketball 3 Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:39pm
pass/crash Troward Basketball 3 Wed Jan 08, 2003 05:08pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:28pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1