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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 08:01am
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Fun With Legal Guarding Position ...

IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...Oom8K4YtrW.mp4

Is this a block or a charge? Observe the play and make a decision as to what type of foul is committed on this play.

Two choices: This is a blocking foul. This is a player control foul.

My comment: This is a player control foul. Blue #30 had legal guarding position and White #20 used his right arm and shoulder to push Blue #30 in the torso and displace Blue #30. Did White #20 travel as he started his dribble drive?
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 08:15am
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PC. No travel -- but the little hesitation did make that thought enter my mind.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 09:44am
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Too Close To Call, So Don't Call It ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
No travel -- but the little hesitation did make that thought enter my mind.
If by, "No travel", you meant, "Too close to call, so don't call it", I agree.

After the same "thought enter(ed) my mind", I replayed the video at 1/4 speed (only available to IAABO members).

Endline angle. White #20 catches the ball with only his right foot on the floor and his left foot in the air, and then puts his left foot on the floor, making his right foot his pivot foot. He then lifts his right (pivot) foot before releasing the ball to start a dribble. Travel.

But again, this was at 1/4 speed and was replayed multiple times. If it's too close to call, don't call it.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Apr 21, 2021 at 10:19am.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 10:05am
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PC foul. The defender even stops moving and gets run over. This is one of the easier ones based on the endline angle. The Center guessed.

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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 10:11am
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Travel was the first thing I thought. Replay shows that he lifts his right pivot foot before releasing the dribble.

Contact is definitely a PC.

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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 10:17am
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Train Wreck ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The Center guessed.
Locally, we've been taught that when there's a train wreck, and when a call just has has to made, and when one is ill-prepared to make that call (for whatever reason, sudden surprise, bad angle, straight-lined, out of position, etc.), if there's contact on the defender's torso (as in this video), to make an educated guess and err on the side of calling a player control foul.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Apr 21, 2021 at 10:33am.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 10:30am
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I did not say to not make a call, but we default too often to the defender who did something wrong. This is a clear PC foul from the end-line look. That is not the look he had as the Center. And because he did not position adjust, he really did not see the play clearly. He was straight-lined. And as a philosophy when I have doubt, I am calling a PC foul because to me it cleans up your game better than calling a block. Then the offensive players think they can go into defenders no matter what and get calls. Again, just my opinion.

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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 10:47am
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I thought it was a block from the first look. It looked like a bit of a hip thrust to initiate contact.

The endline angle proves that wrong. Easy PC from that look.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 10:49am
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Default Guess ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... but we default too often to the defender ...
Agree.

If I'm ill-prepared to make a train wreck call that absolutely has to be made (too much contact and can't pass with a no call), ill-prepared for whatever reason, sudden surprise, bad angle, straight-lined, out of position, bad partner (swallows whistle), partner out of position, sun in eyes through a gym window (we actually have a gym with this problem), etc.), and if I also fail (for the same reasons above) to see contact/no contact on the defender's torso (not even getting a little peek at our usual best guess "rule of thumb" clue, contact on torso), my default guess call with players on the floor and with me having absolutely no clue as to how they got there, right, or wrong, is a block.

Only happens once, or twice, a year, if that, but some plays require a whistle because a no-call (no guess) in such plays would only encourage subsequent rough play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... if there's contact on the defender's torso ... to make an educated guess and err on the side of calling a player control foul.
... otherwise (no contact on the defender's torso, or can't observe contact/no contact on the defender's torso) I rule (guess) a block.

All by local custom.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Apr 21, 2021 at 12:09pm.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 12:52pm
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Block Guess ...

In block/charge situations, when we have players on the floor and we have absolutely no clue as to how they got there, I wonder if there is a statistically better guess, block, or charge?

In millions of block/charge situations over the years that have been correctly adjudicated, are defenders more likely to illegally contact ball handlers, or are ball handlers more likely to illegally contact defenders?

Can't answer more blocks in a game than charges because some blocks may not be in a block/charge situation (illegal screens).

I think that you can see where I'm going with this. Our local custom in block/charge situations, when we have players on the floor and we have absolutely no clue as to how they got there, and haven't observed contact, or no contact, on the defender's torso, and can't pass with a no-call because it would encourage subsequent rough play, we locally default to block.

Are we more likely to be correct, or incorrect, with the "blind" block guess?

Of course, it's always better to anticipate the play, know the rules, and be in the best position to make the correct call, but "stuff" happens, and sometimes the "train wreck" whistle has to be sounded, followed by a "blind" guess.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Apr 21, 2021 at 12:57pm.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:00pm
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You have absolutely no clue how players got to the floor and you are willing to indiscriminately give a player their 5th foul?

If I have no clue what happened, I'm not calling anything and telling the coaches I totally missed what happened. If I saw parts of the play or saw it late, I'm using context clues such as how the defender fell or if the offensive player had changed his path, etc. to help determine which way I'm guessing.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:48pm
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Context Clues ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
You have absolutely no clue how players got to the floor and you are willing to indiscriminately give a player their 5th foul?
Good point.

Our local interpreter (as well as all past local interpreters) is vehemently adamant that we have to put a whistle on these train wreck plays, even if we have to guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If I saw parts of the play or saw it late, I'm using context clues such as how the defender fell or if the offensive player had changed his path, etc. to help determine which way I'm guessing.
Totally agree, but this isn't flying "blind", but an educated guess based on observations.

Apart from theory, in real games, I doubt that any of us, no matter what the situation is, no matter how badly out of position we are, no matter how surprised we are, no matter how bad our partner is, are completely oblivious ("blind") to some sort of a context clue.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Apr 22, 2021 at 08:57am.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:58pm
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If I have no idea what happened, I rule nothing. If it was close, and someone definitely fouled, I err on the side of calling a charge, because it is more likely that the offensive player did something illegal in colliding with a legal defender than that an otherwise-legal defender did something illegal that would make the play a block. If there's a flop, then it is an entirely different story.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 03:54pm
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"Bodies on the floor, we need to have something" is one of those overused, nonsensical philosophies that make me cringe whenever I hear it in a pregame.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2021, 04:00pm
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That makes sense, because it is possible for players to trip and fall on their own, or for players to incidentally contact each other and fall down.
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